My Religion Views?

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16 Oct 2013, 10:19 am

And the earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis, fatal diseases, and so on?

And why should we take responsibility for what other men do when we're not powerful enough to stop all violence and suffering?

shrox
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16 Oct 2013, 10:26 am

MCalavera wrote:

And the earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis, fatal diseases, and so on?

And why should we take responsibility for what other men do when we're not powerful enough to stop all violence and suffering?

You do know about plate tectonics and the connection between hygiene and health I hope.

MCalavera
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16 Oct 2013, 10:32 am

shrox wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

And the earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis, fatal diseases, and so on?

And why should we take responsibility for what other men do when we're not powerful enough to stop all violence and suffering?

You do know about plate tectonics and the connection between hygiene and health I hope.

So it's our fault we suffer terminal illnesses when we don't always have control over them and they come unexpectedly at a lot of times?

And I don't get your point about plate tectonics. Are you saying we cause them?

shrox
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16 Oct 2013, 11:01 am

MCalavera wrote:

shrox wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

And the earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis, fatal diseases, and so on?

And why should we take responsibility for what other men do when we're not powerful enough to stop all violence and suffering?

You do know about plate tectonics and the connection between hygiene and health I hope.

Wow, that was funny. Are you saying God causes these things? I would guess it's a natural process.

Yes, we DO cause many of our illnesses.

MCalavera
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16 Oct 2013, 12:07 pm

shrox wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

shrox wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

And the earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis, fatal diseases, and so on?

And why should we take responsibility for what other men do when we're not powerful enough to stop all violence and suffering?

You do know about plate tectonics and the connection between hygiene and health I hope.

Wow, that was funny. Are you saying God causes these things? I would guess it's a natural process.

Yes, we DO cause many of our illnesses.

I am assuming for the sake of argument your god exists. But if you accept that God plays no role when it comes to natural processes, well, whatever you say.

As for illnesses, we don't cause every illness, no. Do we cause viruses to infect us unexpectedly? Do we cause cancer to happen to us without our knowledge and awareness?

shrox
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16 Oct 2013, 12:18 pm

MCalavera wrote:

shrox wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

shrox wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

And the earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis, fatal diseases, and so on?

And why should we take responsibility for what other men do when we're not powerful enough to stop all violence and suffering?

You do know about plate tectonics and the connection between hygiene and health I hope.

Wow, that was funny. Are you saying God causes these things? I would guess it's a natural process.

Yes, we DO cause many of our illnesses.

I would think by know you would know I don't believe in a "magic god" that stretches down a giant hand to do things on Earth.

"Do we cause cancer to happen to us without our knowledge and awareness?" Absolutely, smoking is known as a major source of cancer, yet just 50 years it was seen as healthy, but it was still causing cancer.

MCalavera
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16 Oct 2013, 12:22 pm

But smoking is not the only cause. There are several causes beyond our control that cause cancer. Why blame humans for that?

If you're a deist who concedes that God sits by and does nothing to stop suffering, ok, but why blame humans for violence and suffering when they have the natural tendency (thanks to nature or God or whatever) to do so. You can't put the whole blame on a race of imperfect beings while excusing an omnipotent power being like God.

shrox
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16 Oct 2013, 12:28 pm

MCalavera wrote:

The majority of non-smoking cancer today is linked to pollution in the environment, workplace and home. We did that. Most heart disease is self inflicted, most obesity and diabetes is self inflicted.

Really? You can't see our hands' role in murder, theft and abuse? I don't discuss "God" anymore, all people do is mention the bad things that men do as actions of God. Or they get mad that God isn't active like a giant hand from the sky. They don't even know his name usually!

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16 Oct 2013, 2:02 pm

Even if I granted you for the sake of argument that the majority of non-smoking cancer is linked to stuff humans have caused, not all terminal illnesses are a result of mankind.

Also, you posted a picture with Jesus in it placing the blame on mankind. Is Jesus not human as well? Does he not take the blame?

shrox
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16 Oct 2013, 2:40 pm

MCalavera wrote:

Well, Jesus was the only human to know "life" before being born. That's a pretty awkward way of putting it, but words fail to describe what we don't know. And yes, he did take the blame and was killed for it. So, if he is God, and someone points and says "He killed people!", well, he was executed you know...

The picture is just a metaphor, you could have the Flying Spaghetti Monster sitting there commenting on humanity and the point about responsibility would be just as valid.

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16 Oct 2013, 6:01 pm

shrox wrote:

Are you saying God causes these things?

Either:
1) God did not create the world
or 2) God created the world, which contains polio, smallpox, earthquakes, volcanoes, IKEA, tsunamis, hurricanes, malaria, cancer, type 1 diabetes, people who do bad things, famine, floods, and so forth.
or 3) God created the world, which does not contain any of those things.

3) is empirically false. Either 2) is true, in which case BAD GOD! (or incompetent God), or 1) is true.

shrox
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16 Oct 2013, 6:07 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

shrox wrote:

Are you saying God causes these things?

I believe that "God" simply set something in motion. We know it commonly as the Big Bang. It wasn't random, rather precisely done to achieve what is the tangible reality around us today, and there is a goal regarding all this.

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16 Oct 2013, 6:21 pm

shrox wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

shrox wrote:

Are you saying God causes these things?

So God designed and set in motion a world in which millions of children have died from painful diseases, starvation, natural disasters, etc.?

BAD GOD, BAD!

I do agree with you that humans have a responsibility to sort out these problems, but God shouldn't have made them in the first place.

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16 Oct 2013, 6:38 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

shrox wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

shrox wrote:

Are you saying God causes these things?

That's just childish "logic", and why I don't discuss the topic, few can do so with reason.

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16 Oct 2013, 6:46 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

tern wrote:

If God is omnipotent and is hidebound about all that the creation he loves can't approach him unless ritually cleaned by a legal contrivance written in blood, yet he does not want anyone to end up separated from him by that same legalese stuff that he chose to put in place -

then he would do 2 things.

1. He would speak to everyone inv the world directly in a physical voice. this would prove his existence and tell everyone Evangelical Christanity is the right religion. There would be no other religions, no cults, and no atheism. The excuse traditionally given for why he can't do this is that he is too overwhlemingly powerful a being for us to bear to see or hear hm - that won't stand up for an omnipotent being, if he can do anything he can choose to speak in a voice whose modulation and volume is at our level and we can bear to hear.

2. He would send the risen Christ to appear directly to that that tribe. Who have effectively requested that, after all, and who are only applying the same reasoning as the disciple Thomas: we'll believe this when we see it.

I'm incredibly rich. My father is a well known author; my mother is a successful entrepreneur and philanthropist.

If I meet a nice young lady, I could say "I am incredibly rich and I have cool parents". She'd probably find me extremely interesting as a result.
Alternatively, I could not tell her about my considerable wealth and how amazing my parents are. That way, I know any interest she has for me is genuine and not motivated by my position.

Similarly, if God said "I am God, I am brilliant, worship me or go to Hell", then our love for him would not be as valuable. We would essentially be forced to love him, rather than struggling to love him as we do now.

(I'm not incredibly rich and my parents have fairly mundane jobs, in case you thought I was being serious- I was adapting Peter Vardy's analogy of the king and the servant girl)

Nope. That argument doesn't work either. In fact you discredit it yourself. You said "if god stated worship me or go to hell, then our love would not be valuable." that's why he can't reveal himself as proposed. Well, that is how God reveals himself in the bible, accept me as lord, god and savior or go to hell. So if god already reveals himself like that in the bible why can't he come out visibly and state it? Either way our love is not valuable.

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16 Oct 2013, 6:53 pm

shrox wrote:

1. I was not created as all knowing, all powerful or all loving. So if god thinks it's up to me, then he is to blame for not creating me in a way to handle it.
2. God is supposedly all knowing, all powerful and all loving. Yet he does nothing??

That's two strikes against the big guy.

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