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shrox
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16 Oct 2013, 7:18 pm

Cash__ wrote:
shrox wrote:
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1. I was not created as all knowing, all powerful or all loving. So if god thinks it's up to me, then he is to blame for not creating me in a way to handle it.
2. God is supposedly all knowing, all powerful and all loving. Yet he does nothing??

That's two strikes against the big guy.


What do want him to do? To stop these things would amount to mind control, and at what point should he intervene?

Your equating your inaction and feelings as "two strikes against the big guy" is indeed funny, fortunately many do take up the slack. Shouldn't your parents be blamed by your logic, they had first hand interaction with you? I don't mean to imply anything negative, just comparing your logic in this particular point.



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16 Oct 2013, 8:14 pm

One of the problems with the "God does nothing" philosophy is that there's too much contrary evidence for it to be true. Yes, people still do evil every day, and many get hurt...but I think God hates it much more than any of us ever could. The popular question is usually, "Why doesn;t He do anything?", to which I'd answer with, "What makes you think He's not?"

It all goes back to the core belief of those who reject God: naturalism. They reject any possibility of the supernatural outright, only using its existence as a shield to hide their own hypocrisy. You can't have it both ways; either God exists and loves us all, or He doesn't. To paraphrase Mr. Spock, "only human arrogance would assume any good in this world can only come from man."

I'm sure if we're brutally honest with ourselves, we can all think of at least one event in our lives, that by all logic should never have turned out as good as it did. Words like "chance" or "coincidence" are just excuses, to gloss over the fact we don't know everything.


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17 Oct 2013, 2:47 am

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
One of the problems with the "God does nothing" philosophy is that there's too much contrary evidence for it to be true. Yes, people still do evil every day, and many get hurt...but I think God hates it much more than any of us ever could.


Do you have any examples of things that 'God' has done? Can you provide some of the "too much contrary evidence" you speak of? On what do you base your opinion of what 'God' likes or dislikes?

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The popular question is usually, "Why doesn;t He do anything?", to which I'd answer with, "What makes you think He's not?"


The only time I've encountered this question posed in earnest is among young, indoctrinated Christians who are expressing their skepticism, and is not representative of an atheistic viewpoint.

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It all goes back to the core belief of those who reject God: naturalism. They reject any possibility of the supernatural outright, only using its existence as a shield to hide their own hypocrisy. You can't have it both ways; either God exists and loves us all, or He doesn't. To paraphrase Mr. Spock, "only human arrogance would assume any good in this world can only come from man."


Who do you mean by "those who reject God"? Do you mean atheists, for whom the phrase 'core belief' does not apply? I think it is important that you refine your meaning so as not to seem like you are making sweeping generalisations. For example, I might say (incorrectly) that "the core belief of all Christians is that our planet is 6000 years old".

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I'm sure if we're brutally honest with ourselves, we can all think of at least one event in our lives, that by all logic should never have turned out as good as it did.


Just because the odds are incredibly long does not remove the possibility of something occurring. It is illogical to assume that long shots do not happen.

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Words like "chance" or "coincidence" are just excuses, to gloss over the fact we don't know everything.


Please elaborate. Preferably with examples.



MCalavera
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17 Oct 2013, 2:56 am

shrox wrote:
Cash__ wrote:
shrox wrote:
Image

1. I was not created as all knowing, all powerful or all loving. So if god thinks it's up to me, then he is to blame for not creating me in a way to handle it.
2. God is supposedly all knowing, all powerful and all loving. Yet he does nothing??

That's two strikes against the big guy.


What do want him to do? To stop these things would amount to mind control, and at what point should he intervene?

Your equating your inaction and feelings as "two strikes against the big guy" is indeed funny, fortunately many do take up the slack. Shouldn't your parents be blamed by your logic, they had first hand interaction with you? I don't mean to imply anything negative, just comparing your logic in this particular point.


You are just providing excuses. Anything is better than allowing people to continue to hurt others.



shrox
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17 Oct 2013, 10:44 am

MCalavera wrote:
shrox wrote:
Cash__ wrote:
shrox wrote:
Image

1. I was not created as all knowing, all powerful or all loving. So if god thinks it's up to me, then he is to blame for not creating me in a way to handle it.
2. God is supposedly all knowing, all powerful and all loving. Yet he does nothing??

That's two strikes against the big guy.


What do want him to do? To stop these things would amount to mind control, and at what point should he intervene?

Your equating your inaction and feelings as "two strikes against the big guy" is indeed funny, fortunately many do take up the slack. Shouldn't your parents be blamed by your logic, they had first hand interaction with you? I don't mean to imply anything negative, just comparing your logic in this particular point.


You are just providing excuses. Anything is better than allowing people to continue to hurt others.


What? The whole point of the picture is we deny OUR responsibility. You just don't get it I guess...you really need to learn to understand metaphor.



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17 Oct 2013, 9:57 pm

Responsibility for what? We are not responsible for everything that happens to everything in this world. Why should we then be responsible for the harm we didn't cause to other fellow human beings. I agree it's good to help others in times of sickness and disasters, but we're not (as a whole) responsible for the pain others suffer in general. If God exists, he should be the one held responsible. And if Jesus is God, he should stop being a coward and shifting the blame on infinitely less powerful beings.



MCalavera
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17 Oct 2013, 10:03 pm

Also, one other thing:

In the picture, I would add an extra bubble coming forth from the young man's mouth stating: "How about we switch? I become God instead of you and you'll see how I can fix this world."



shrox
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17 Oct 2013, 10:26 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Also, one other thing:

In the picture, I would add an extra bubble coming forth from the young man's mouth stating: "How about we switch? I become God instead of you and you'll see how I can fix this world."


The only way to "fix the world" would be to directly control peoples' minds. Is that what you want? God censoring your thoughts and actions as well as the thoughts and actions of others?



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17 Oct 2013, 11:46 pm

shrox wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Also, one other thing:

In the picture, I would add an extra bubble coming forth from the young man's mouth stating: "How about we switch? I become God instead of you and you'll see how I can fix this world."


The only way to "fix the world" would be to directly control peoples' minds. Is that what you want? God censoring your thoughts and actions as well as the thoughts and actions of others?


You are assuming free will is even logical to be considered. You're predetermined be who you are and do what you do, so what's mind control going to change anyway. Besides, there are other ways to fix this world without using mind control. Everytime someone tries to harm someone else, prevent that person via supernatural interventions from doing so without directly controlling his mind and encourage and enable everyone to do good to everyone else and desist from evil. Also provide to the poor and destitute when needed so that they don't have an excuse to harm others. And make sure narcissists are perfectly satisfied so that they don't have to destroy others around them. And find activities for corrupt people to indulge in and be addicted so they may permanently be distracted from (and no longer wish to) harm others because of their corrupted minds. And etc.



shrox
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17 Oct 2013, 11:53 pm

MCalavera wrote:
shrox wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Also, one other thing:

In the picture, I would add an extra bubble coming forth from the young man's mouth stating: "How about we switch? I become God instead of you and you'll see how I can fix this world."


The only way to "fix the world" would be to directly control peoples' minds. Is that what you want? God censoring your thoughts and actions as well as the thoughts and actions of others?


You are assuming free will is even logical to be considered. You're predetermined be who you are and do what you do, so what's mind control going to change anyway. Besides, there are other ways to fix this world without using mind control. Everytime someone tries to harm someone else, prevent that person via supernatural interventions from doing so without directly controlling his mind and encourage and enable everyone to do good to everyone else and desist from evil. Also provide to the poor and destitute when needed so that they don't have an excuse to harm others. And make sure narcissists are perfectly satisfied so that they don't have to destroy others around them. And find activities for corrupt people to indulge in and be addicted so they may permanently be distracted from (and no longer wish to) harm others because of their corrupted minds. And etc.


OK, that would still involve controlling peoples actions. What about somebody drinking, then driving home? What about the server?



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17 Oct 2013, 11:59 pm

Better than allowing these actions to cause harm to others. Wouldn't you like it if your children were kept assuredly safe from the harm of predators who are driven by lust to violate them and hurt them? Better than God sitting by and not doing anything about it, right?

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What about somebody drinking, then driving home?


If he must drive while drunk, make sure he doesn't have an accident. If he is about to trigger an accident, use supernatural means to prevent it. Kind of like how "Death" acts in the Final Destination movie series, but with the end goal of protecting the people rather than killing them.

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What about the server?


Server of what? You mean the one who serves alcohol and such? Again, there are several ways to go about it divinely speaking. If they must be allowed to drink alcohol, then make sure they don't end up being harmed. That's all.



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18 Oct 2013, 12:08 am

MCalavera wrote:
Better than allowing these actions to cause harm to others. Wouldn't you like it if your children were kept assuredly safe from the harm of predators who are driven by lust to violate them and hurt them? Better than God sitting by and not doing anything about it, right?

Quote:
What about somebody drinking, then driving home?


If he must drive while drunk, make sure he doesn't have an accident. If he is about to trigger an accident, use supernatural means to prevent it. Kind of like how "Death" acts in the Final Destination movie series, but with the end goal of protecting the people rather than killing them.

Quote:
What about the server?


Server of what? You mean the one who serves alcohol and such? Again, there are several ways to go about it divinely speaking. If they must be allowed to drink alcohol, then make sure they don't end up being harmed. That's all.


Ok, I am glad that none of us have such powers then. However if you were to change places with God, you would see why things are as they are.



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18 Oct 2013, 12:12 am

shrox wrote:
Ok, I am glad that none of us have such powers then.


Are you glad that children continue to be molested by adults with corrupted minds? I'm very sure you find this tragic, so have a good think about why you think this is all overall a bad idea.

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However if you were to change places with God, you would see why things are as they are.


Ok, and I would see that the current God was just either incompetent or not giving much crap.



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18 Oct 2013, 12:44 am

It makes me laugh when people with religion postulate these ideas that their supreme being should not be held responsible for all the bad things and if, in the cartoon above, man should dare to question, then that question is asked of man.

Then, WHAT is this god FOR?

All the bad things that happen are either man made or naturally occurring, the cartoon suggests we should look to ourselves for the cause and I would agree. So if a god should not be held accountable for the bad, then nor should it be held accountable for good and therefore the idea of a god is redundant.

A child no longer believes in father christmas only when they are expected to give presents and not just receive them, then they realise that the idea of father christmas is redundant because there is no longer any ignorance to where presents really come from. Similary, the idea of a god has no meaning when there is realisation that it has no power to influence (bad or good) the universe that surrounds us. And if this god cannot influence all the bad things, then the idea it created anything is also redundant.

So, as in the cartoon, the imaginary friend does not have the answer and therefore is not required.


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shrox
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18 Oct 2013, 12:50 am

Prud wrote:
It makes me laugh when people with religion postulate these ideas that their supreme being should not be held responsible for all the bad things and if, in the cartoon above, man should dare to question, then that question is asked of man.

Then, WHAT is this god FOR?


I would ask, "what are WE for?"

Prud wrote:
All the bad things that happen are either man made or naturally occurring, the cartoon suggests we should look to ourselves for the cause and I would agree. So if a god should not be held accountable for the bad, then nor should it be held accountable for good and therefore the idea of a god is redundant.


He was arrested, tried and killed on a cross, as I already mentioned...

Prud wrote:
A child no longer believes in father christmas only when they are expected to give presents and not just receive them, then they realise that the idea of father christmas is redundant because there is no longer any ignorance to where presents really come from. Similary, the idea of a god has no meaning when there is realisation that it has no power to influence (bad or good) the universe that surrounds us. And if this god cannot influence all the bad things, then the idea it created anything is also redundant.

So, as in the cartoon, the imaginary friend does not have the answer and therefore is not required.


And yes, it's just a cartoon drawing, meant to invoke thought.



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18 Oct 2013, 1:12 am

Quote:
I would ask, "what are WE for?"


We do not have to be for anything, just like a god.

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He was arrested, tried and killed on a cross, as I already mentioned...


And father christmas gave presents to children, they are still both man made ideas.

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And yes, it's just a cartoon drawing, meant to invoke thought.


No, it's a religious cartoon, meant to distract the beleiver from asking those awkward questions like, WHY? HOW? and DO I REALLY NEED YOU?


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