Question for Statists

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20 Jan 2014, 9:06 am

What gives one group of people the moral authority to initiate violence against people? What gives said arbitrary group of people the right to seize the wealth others have worked for and interpose themselves in affairs that don't concern them?

thomas81
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20 Jan 2014, 9:26 am

what violence?

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Last edited by thomas81 on 20 Jan 2014, 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

Magneto
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20 Jan 2014, 9:28 am

thomas81
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20 Jan 2014, 9:30 am

no really, captain picard, can you elaborate?

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Magneto
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20 Jan 2014, 9:33 am

Can you explain why you think there is no violence involved in the state?

thomas81
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20 Jan 2014, 9:38 am

Magneto wrote:

Can you explain why you think there is no violence involved in the state?

Perhaps you should ask why only the state is guilty. I'm not convinced that the private sector wouldn't use force either.

Quite the contrary, without regulation or the state in place to protect the little guy the private sector would use force in wholesale quantities. There is a reason why things became more brutal in Italy when Mussolini embraced corporatism and starting kowtowing to the demands of big business. Yes, that was a state but it was a move towards libertarian whims.

Even now, they employ the threat of intimidation the only difference is the mode of the threat of violence. ie curtailing of shelter, food, warmth etc. Oh yes, they do use the threat of actual violence, sending heavies around to act as debt collectors because you've fallen behind with the exhorbitant and skinflinted payments on essential services such as rent or electricity.

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Kraichgauer
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20 Jan 2014, 2:55 pm

^^^
Prior to government protection of workers rights, it was common for companies to hire armed strike breakers - and even get assistance from the police - to end strikes violently.

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thomas81
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20 Jan 2014, 3:41 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

^^^
Prior to government protection of workers rights, it was common for companies to hire armed strike breakers - and even get assistance from the police - to end strikes violently.

Indeed.

I would go farther than that and argue that the entire damn police is nothing more than the armed wing of big business and the private sector. Their masters have long been since bought off and bankrolled by whichever companies sponsor the ruling party of the day.

Its really encapsulated by the fact that on the seldom occasions i or someone i know has needed police assistance the response time has been up to several hours while conversely, whenever i have been on a (peaceful) street protest columns of robocops have materialised in a barricade in the shop face of McDonalds within minutes.

The behaviour of the NYPD during OWS really drew the line in the sand and showed whose side they are really on.

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pete1061
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20 Jan 2014, 5:15 pm

thomas81 wrote:

what violence?

And how on earth does this relate to the state and it's use of violence to coerce participation in the state system.

What violence?
If one does not participate in the dictates of the state, ultimately, if said resistor continues to disobey, men with with guns will break down that persons door and aggressively apprehend them, and throw them into a cage (jail cell). Sometimes those agents of the state will use "non lethal" or even lethal weapons to apprehend or possibly kill said resistor.

Do you not consider the actions of the police violent?
Or are the Police in Northern Ireland friendly guys who come buy have a pint and politely ask you to come with them, if it is convenient for you.

Because I can tell you US police are militarized thugs who constantly have their violent behavior ignored by the state?

Just try some non-compliance with the state and see how friendly the state can be.

And a state without corporate domination would behave differently?

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thomas81
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20 Jan 2014, 9:44 pm

pete1061 wrote:

And how on earth does this relate to the state and it's use of violence to coerce participation in the state system.

It doesnt, it relates to the private sector and the way it threatens people with the withdrawal of wages and poverty/destitution for refusing or failing to operate within its narrative.

pete1061 wrote:

Or are the Police in Northern Ireland friendly guys who come buy have a pint and politely ask you to come with them, if it is convenient for you.

The police in Northern Ireland are also disliked, not because of their ownership but because of perceptions of political bias within an entirely different context.

pete1061 wrote:

Because I can tell you US police are militarized thugs who constantly have their violent behavior ignored by the state?

I paid enough attention to the news during OWS to know that the American police are little more than paid boot boys for the likes of McDonalds, Monsanto, Enron, and all of the other speculative parasites in the city.

pete1061 wrote:

Just try some non-compliance with the state and see how friendly the state can be.

Or the private sector for that matter

pete1061 wrote:

And a state without corporate domination would behave differently?

there wouldnt be golden handshakes or bailing out dying banks so there would be an awful lot more money to go around for a start.

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crackedfighter
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20 Jan 2014, 10:39 pm

Magneto wrote:

What gives one group of people the moral authority to initiate violence against people?

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." Likewise, what gives people the authority to prevent such violence?

Magneto wrote:

What gives said arbitrary group of people the right to seize the wealth others have worked for...

To work for something implies expectations about the consequences of one's actions. Since taxes are not at all unusual, they must be factored into one's decisions. Therefore, one does not work for the money that they pay in income tax.

Magneto wrote:

...and interpose themselves in affairs that don't concern them?

Nothing, but I suspect you and I disagree on the set of affairs that concern government.

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20 Jan 2014, 11:05 pm

Like it or not, taxes have to be collected for the government to work, which includes services - roads, police and fire protection, national defense, etc. And how are these taxes going to be collected other than at least by the perceived threat of force - the honor system?

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Jacoby
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20 Jan 2014, 11:21 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

why not? if these are all such great things that the government is doing then why shouldn't it be optional?

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20 Jan 2014, 11:26 pm

If we could just abolish the government all violence would go away.

Oops, now I'm in the Thunderdome.

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20 Jan 2014, 11:27 pm

Jacoby wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

why not? if these are all such great things that the government is doing then why shouldn't it be optional?

You're seriously going to pay for things for the public good just out of the goodness of your heart? Incidentally, the founding fathers never had a problem with taxation - just taxation without representation. In fact, they had put down the Whiskey Rebellion - a tax revolt - with armed force.

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pete1061
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20 Jan 2014, 11:36 pm

Karl Marx um, I mean thomas81 wrote:

pete1061 wrote:

And a state without corporate domination would behave differently?

there wouldnt be golden handshakes or bailing out dying banks so there would be an awful lot more money to go around for a start.

So, a stazi, SS, or KGB would be fine for you?
State aggression is ok so long as there is no capitalism?

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