Love, Misogyny, Imdividualism and Competition

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Why is it whenever I question society's standards and values the individual such as myself is considered the problem?

Is society as a whole every wrong in it's standards, beliefs, assumptions and values?

Why is it inappropriate to blame external entities no matter the circumstances?

Of course. But you misapprehend greater society's standards and values. No country, no entire culture or society is "based on hustling and competition."

Do you live in the US? This country was founded explicitly on the principle of individual rights. Loosely stated, the standard is that you may do as you please so long as you don't bother others. Other Western cultures have adopted the same principle to greater or lesser degrees.

Of course it's not always consistently applied. Of course there's a degree of conformism in every culture. Of course there are people who will judge you by how much money you make, or what kind of car you drive ? just as there are people who judge you by the size of your muscles or the color of your skin. Those people are shallow and irrational, among other things, and if you are surrounded by such people you really need to upgrade.

You're right, but from my experience which Dr. Morris Berman confirms it is one of it's primes. http://morrisberman.blogspot.com/



"as you don't bother others..." Now that's the fine print.





They can never be consistently applied and if they can't be consistently then I take exception to the idea that they're inalienable. This is what I've written here that shows within their construction and the ideas lies a disaster waiting to happen.

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress. ... le-rights/

We have the Typhoid Mary Case. She claimed she had liberty to do what she was doing and the City of New York said no people had the right to their lives.



Not a bad idea. Dr. Berman moved to Mexico, upgraded and he was happy. He has wrote a trilogy about America's decline and failure. It may not fail because things have a way of happening that may surprise ya.

1. Twilight of American culture
2. Dark Ages America
3. Why America failed

He has two suggestions.

1. Become a New Monastic - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kingsley- ... 08204.html
2. Hit the Road

You're actually right. Right now, I'm trying to do #1 since I don't have the resources to leave and I have family here.

I'm writing my own fan fiction as part of my becoming a New Monastic Individual. http://cubeangel.wordpress.com/

Janissy provided an awesome suggestion for me. If I wasn't married I would actually do it and I would go to Canter's Deli and get Turkey Sandwich.

I think the US has its problems--especially as it pertains to its ridiculous health care system. We are barbaric in this sense. I believe everybody is entitled to free/low-cost health care because we are human beings, period.

However, overall, I feel I would rather live in the US than in most places in this world, including most "first-world" places. Even with the "hustle and bustle" (which I, through working the late shift, are able to dodge most of time). Even with the overemphasis upon the Christian religion (I'm an agnostic-atheistic).

I believe in the power of individual initiative, and I do believe in the Horatio Alger ideal (as an exemplar-model, rather than as something which is practicable). We need Alger like we need Santa Claus--we need for there to be hope somewhere, even if its illusory in practical terms.

I do wish we reported the news more objectively, and that we would stop being so isolationist in attitude.

We also have to stop being the world's police chief; we should, instead, be like the world's favorite uncle.

I 100% agree here.



The thing is you're thinking in the material and sensate only. Materially, you're right and it has an abundance of all of these things but what is the associated cost of this in one's soul?



I believe in it but not absolutely. The problem I have with it is under such a philosophy it is very difficult for one to obtain help if they truthfully need help. Some people may not be able to pull themselves by their bootstraps unless they're provided assistance and shown how.

Another thing is, some solutions to problems require communitarian type solutions especially if the problem is system wide and global. For example, look at our global environment. Our environment and the components that make it up is inter-connected including our ecosystem. You kill off one species and you affect the entire machinery of the Earth. This is being done today.

My father encountered this issue on a smaller scale when was a civilian working for the military. What happened is you had a system in which there was 5 people who did reports and 1 person who approved them. The five people were able to increase the efficiency output but the one person could not keep up with the increased output of the other 5.

Individualist based solutions and initiative are poor when one is trying to implement solutions on a macro level and the solutions to a number of issues in the US require macro based thinking and this will not happen because of our very cultural DNA. I predict in the distant future we will become a 2nd rate nation maybe a 3rd rate nation eclipsed by China.



Agreed!

LOL....I believe in individual initiative

But, like you stated, on a macro level, OBVIOUSLY a collective consensus is required.

I don't believe in absolutes in most cases.

The thing though is individual initiative, personal responsibility, self-reliance, individualism, and independence are treated like a religion and the words that spring forth from these beliefs are treated with holy reverence. This means they are considered the epitome of perfection and are never considered wrong no matter the circumstance. Can one put forth objections, constructive criticism and questions to these things without being called "envious of someone else's success", "wanting a handout", "irresponsible", etc, etc, etc. Why is this? Why aren't these beliefs open to question in the American social veneer?

For the most part, most people ignore my questions and objections to it. Why? Even Janissy ignored what I said. Why? Why do NTs gloss over some of my points?

I don't know American politics well, but don't people say those things if you want the state to force collectivism? There is a huge difference between people voluntarily helping each other, and the state forcing people to help each other.

Okay, I'm not just talking about American politics or the idea of the state forcing collectivism even though these things do intersect. I'm talking about American culture, American Beliefs and American Identity as a whole. Personally, I do not believe collectivism would work especially for those who would not want. Personally I don't think wealth transfer schemes or welfare is enough. The person whom is in poverty not only does he need to be given fish, or even be taught how to fish but he needs to be brought to a condition in which he can be taught, if possible.

These values don't just lie with keeping gov't out. People are expected to find a way themselves or make a way themselves in the USA no matter what circumstances exist. This is what is expected by my fellow citizens in the USA. This is part of their ethos and their cultural DNA. What does this mean? It means the average Joe is not going to uplift those in the way they need to be uplifted. Yes, we have charities but they still operate under the assumption that the person still has to do it themselves and take charge and be in complete control of their own lives when for some it may not be possible at this time.

Sometimes, dependency may be necessary at different times but the American ethos sees it as blasphemy just like a cross repels a vampire. These things are based upon the idea that we all control our destines which is a form of internal locus of control and the American culture takes it to an extreme. It is the extremeness and absoluteness that I reject.

When I say "help and assistance" why do people in the USA automatically assume government handout? Help and Assistance is much more. It is also the community of people helping the one person with day to day living and maybe teaching them what they need to know on how to metaphorically how to fish and farm or in today's world how to obtain a job, succeed at it and be true to yourself. This is what I mean.

I did because I couldn't quite get a handle on what you are advocating beyond preferring communitarianism to individualism. It isn't because I'm NT (if it was I would be the only one glossing over it in this thread). It's because I'm not entirely sure what specific things you are advocating that I could argue for or against. This thread really does belong in PPR, a place where arguing for and against is the default, rather than giving/receiving relationship advice. But I will attempt a point-by-point parse.


Although the U.S. has what may be the most individualist slant on the planet and has since its creation, I disagree that there are never circumstances where communitarian ideals are embraced. When 9/11 happened, the entire city of New York pulled together as one. And people outside New York came in to help too. When Hurricane Katrina happened and the Coast Guard couldn't handle all the rescues, fishermen from surrounding areas paddled in and rescued people with their little boats. The government was famously inept in responding to it but private citizens took it upon themselves to do the rescues not being done by the government. Basically, the situation that turns Americans into communitarians temporarily is emergencies. It isn't our default but we can do it in an emergency.


This may be a matter of presentation. It's the difference between saying "I want to help the community" and saying "I want the community to help me". If you advocate communitarian solutions to problems with yourself as an active participant it gets a better reception.

This doesn't imply a government handout but it does still imply a handout. Person X is receiving help from the community but they are just a passive receiver of other peoples' largesse. There is no mention of them being integrated into the group so that they in turn will be the one helping somebody out. Maybe you just assume they will once they are able but that needs to be spelled out more.

[Moved from Love and Dating to PPR]

Yeah, you're right. It is what I envision. I will attempt to spell it out more. For person x, what I mean let's say he has no idea what he is supposed to obtain or job. He has no idea what certain things even mean or what others are talking about. Others around him would be willing to sit down with him and explain things to him in specific terms. Once he was able to understand the specifics and understood how the system worked in an intricate manner then he would be able to set goals for himself.

I will give you some of my writings from how I see things and from my experiences. So, I'm going to let you into my head.

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress. ... mployment/

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress. ... d-freedom/

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress. ... urs-truly/

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress. ... onditions/

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress. ... d-culture/

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress. ... re-part-2/

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress. ... d-i-am-35/

http://cubeangel.wordpress.com/ my fanfic

My message for Marty Nemko and for others as well.

To Live is to live with nobility and virtue. It is to be comfortable within your own skin. What happens when one lives in a society that says to be yourself and to be true but in practice if one actually does this he is punished? Everyone on here seems to have their struggles including the struggle to survive. Struggling has been turned into this virtue and it is part of the American ethos. To struggle is to write the future narrative of future human civilizations. Struggle doesn't have to be just a struggle for survival but a struggle for one's identity and for one's soul.

It is why I am writing what I am writing on my blog. It is why I write my fanfiction and why I will write my autobiography. We're all inter-connected through time and space. Our words and our deeds can contribute to the future narrative of human civilization. What we are reduced to in American society and globalism is commodities. We are not human beings with intrinsic worth.

Even if everything I say on my blog, my fanfic, and other writings are inaccurate and even if I'm under some kind of delusional fantasy it still proves my point, how could I have succeeded if everything told to me and everything I read is filtered through my own neurology which some would say is faulty.

If my neurology is faulty then how could I have expected to take charge of my own life and pull my self by my own bootstraps? Either way it goes, my logic stands. All of these things are not just for people to read today since most people don't care about them anyway but to add more of personal touch to the human narrative and to "Why America Failed" by Morris Berman. I failed in America and in today's global economy due to who and what I am. If I can't succeed in my life at least I can add my narrative to the narrative of human civilization. Sometimes, one must go north in order to go south and sometimes to win one must lose. I can't put on a caricature of what someone else including an employer wants me to be.

If one can't live with truth and virtue and be oneself as a whole person then I ask does life and survival remain a virtue instead of vice? Even if our daily bread sustains our bodies, I ask what if slowly kills one soul? If the requirements for survival in a given society are destructive to one's soul and if it is like the song Hotel California in which one can check out but never leave then what? What is the point to living if one truthfully can't live. What good is one's inalienable rights if one must give up his soul? Socrates chose to take the hemlock and the man and his spirit lives on through what Plato and his other students wrote down and now we have western philosophy and law. Socrates transcended his own death and won immortality. Sometimes death becomes a virtue and sometimes someone's death can help to reshape the human narrative.

Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 05 Sep 2014, 12:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.

And what percentage of the time is there a disaster occurring? Maybe we need more disasters to make the American people treat each other better.


We have an economic system where many people don't know how they can possibly contribute. People spend the majority of their time obtaining money so they can live. I also don't see what's wrong with asking for help from the community. Why should a person who needs help be shamed and robbed of his/her dignity? What is so wrong with asking for help when you need it? That's what our society does. It attacks and shames those who ask for help. Of course you're not disabled so you've never been in that position. Try to put yourself in someone less fortunate's shoes. Are you the type of individualist who would rather see someone commit suicide than ask for help from the community? You want to throw shame on people who can't contribute to the economy the way it currently functions.

Exactly, what if one can't contribute and the only way one can is with other's help?

I am not entirely certain what is being referred to if anything in particular, so I will answer in general as best as I can.

I see some people who hustle others an make everything a competition, but I also see plenty of other people who are charitable and help others - sometimes at a loss to themselves. Societies are corporations composed of individuals who individually have their own values and philosophies.



Whenever anyone talks about spiritual stuff without specifying, it makes me want to say, "WTF?". And yes, I may seem like a hypocrite for not following Paul's squawking against plebeian vulgarity in favor of patrician language, but, and yes this may just be a justification, Elijah had taunted the priests of baal suggesting that perhaps their god wasn't responding because he was too busy sh*tting. If vulgarity is a sin, let God deal with me, because I'm sick of all the unnecessary fences of the type of "don't even touch" whereas the commandment was only "do not eat".

As for love being required, yes I agree. It is far better to act out of love than to act out of robotic compulsion.




For the amount of objectification done, sometimes it is done by members of the group which complains the most about being objectified in order to control or influence members of the opposite which are easily distracted by the mere physical form of those who complain about being objectified. It doesn't make it any better, but it's not just one group doing the objectification to the other.



Everyone is an individual and we often have to function as groups. Not everyone is an extrovert, but, yes, even introverts need some socialization with a few people they feel confident enough to call their friends. Being altruistic is simple enough, but then you find people who treat you as if you are "gullible" and try to use you and then that makes a bad example to be wary of from then onwards.



Isn't this a Beetle's song?