Arguing God is like arguing Santa

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NewTime
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21 Sep 2015, 10:41 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:

people continue to believe even when proven wrong and throw temper tantrums and cry because they rely on their beliefs.

If that were the case that people continue to believe in things even when proven wrong, people wouldn't grow out of believing in Santa.

NewTime
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21 Sep 2015, 10:48 pm

Does time exist? Time, like, God is something that people can't see, hear, smell or feel. Yet lots of people have faith in time.

Humanaut
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21 Sep 2015, 11:17 pm

NewTime wrote:

Time, like, God is something that people can't see, hear, smell or feel.

We can measure time (time is a quantification of relative motion), but we can not measure God.

LoveNotHate
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22 Sep 2015, 1:37 pm

Grebels wrote:

It's good to have a laugh, not to take life too seriously all the time. That's how I see this discussion. So, Ok numbers are an idea, they don't have substance, not as a noun. However, when they become an adjective things become quite different. They are attached to an object. Red is real and so is one apple. Oxygen has an atomic weight of 16 and that is an essential quality, a concrete fact, not just an idea. I want you to consider the Phi number (1.618) a basic fact of science. It can be measured, but is existing, it is observed and measured in nature's spirals by mathematicians. It is crucial to various aspects of science, including the structure of atoms.

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the OP, except if numbers are just an idea who thought them up in the first place? Is it a complete coincidence that we can take a set of Fibonacci numbers and the pairs just happen to describe that beautiful proportion, the Golden Mean?

Whether math exists or not is debated .

One camp, the math anti-realists say math is only in your mind.
One camp, the math realists, say math exists in reality.

However, contrary to the example you cite, with regards to 'infinity' there is a proof of its existence.

Grebels
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22 Sep 2015, 2:14 pm

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However, contrary to the example you cite, with regards to 'infinity' there is a proof of its existence.

Was this a typo and you meant no proof.

Edenthiel
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22 Sep 2015, 2:48 pm

Humanaut wrote:

NewTime wrote:

Time, like, God is something that people can't see, hear, smell or feel.

We can measure time (time is a quantification of relative motion), but we can not measure God.

Time is an abstract concept created by humans to explain the progression of events which would otherwise seem random. Interesting analogy.

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Humanaut
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22 Sep 2015, 3:38 pm

We need to detect God before he can be measured, and we need an idea of where to look before building a scope or whatever suitable instrument is needed to perform such a task. It would be the discovery of all discoveries. God could then serve as an ingredient when forming new abstract concepts. God and velocity might be suitable ingredients when forming the concept of godspeed. The possibilities are yet unknown, and possibly endless.

Oldavid
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22 Sep 2015, 4:11 pm

There are many things the existence of which can only be known by what they do.

I suppose that there are many here who are narcissistic enough to claim that an electron doesn't exist because it will not submit itself to their puny scrutiny.

SoMissunderstood
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10 Nov 2015, 10:00 pm

I believe in neither (but I am a spiritual person).

However, to compare a concept like 'God' to a concept like 'Santa Claus' is a total fallacy, really.

I like to debunk psuedoskeptical arguments (call it a 'hobby').

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Page4.htm

No disrespect intended, but I'd just like people to understand this aspect of it.

naturalplastic
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11 Nov 2015, 6:24 am

LoveNotHate wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

So you're saying that there is a finite number of numbers?

Numbers are abstract concepts that don't exist in reality.

In reality, all known measurements are finite, nothing is known to be infinite.

As I cited, the math professor argues that math proofs should not contain the assumption of "actual infinity", since he does not see evidence of its existence. He argues for the use of "potential infinity" in math proofs.

Still, some math/science people are believers in actual infinity.

Some physicists believe the universe is like a tape that endlessly plays over and over. Some believe in the "multiverse" of an infinite number of universes.

My point is that they have faith that actual infinity can exist.

Utter nonsense.

First of all abstract does not equal 'unreal'.

Second there is no such thing as "a belief in infinity" because infinity is not a thing. Its the absence of something. The absence of a boundary line. In many cases no end, no outer boundary, no finiteness has ever been detected (like points on a line, or the number of numbers). So to believe in finiteness for those things would take faith because you believing in something that has never been observed.

Saying that it takes "faith" to believe in infinity is like saying "it takes faith to doubt the existence of unicorns".

izzeme
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11 Nov 2015, 7:33 am

NewTime wrote:

How can the universe pop into existence from nothing? That is something that people have a hard time seeing as possible.

This is a strawman thrown up by creationists; scientists do not claim that the universe "popped into existence" from "nothing" (well, perhaps some do, but the community as a whole doesn't).
According the the commonly accepted explanation: the universe started as a singularity: which had all the energy, mass and matter that would become the universe contained into an infinitely small "marble"; extremely small, yes, but not "nothing"

And to beat anyone to it: asking where this came from is the same as asking where god comes from: we will never know, since it is no use discussing that which happened before the beginning of time or outside of "everything".
It might be that something (for the sake of argument: a "god") placed this 'marble' in place, but that still invalidates genisis, as the universe itself was started off and then just do whatever it would do according to its internal laws.

kraftiekortie
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11 Nov 2015, 9:30 am

I think, in some ways, the OP's quote is applicable.

Santa is an entity which children want to believe in--it gives them hope.

God is an entity which many people want to believe in--it gives them hope.

Both are based upon a certain "faith," rather than something which tangibly exists.

I'm atheist/agnostic myself--but I don't argue religion because it's faith-based--even atheist can be said to be faith-based to a certain extent.

I don't tell kids there is no Santa. I let them decide for themselves.

AspE
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11 Nov 2015, 10:36 am

NewTime wrote:

Believing in God is not as irrational as a belief in Santa. Even children who strongly believe in Santa can see that it's very possible for parents to put pres and ents under a tree. There's no logical need for there to be Santa. However many things seem to be illogical without the existence of God. How can the universe pop into existence from nothing? That is something that people have a hard time seeing as possible.

The early universe was tiny and simple. God is by definition complex. Which is more likely to pop into existence?

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