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Trump or Hillary

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If the general election boiled down to Trump or Hillary, how would you vote?
Trump 30%  30%  [ 21 ]
Hillary 24%  24%  [ 17 ]
Write-in (Sanders) 24%  24%  [ 17 ]
Other (please explain) 14%  14%  [ 10 ]
I'm not voting 8%  8%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 71

Dox47
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28 Dec 2015, 6:21 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Well there are/were certain things about Gary Johnson that I disliked and he doesn't compare to Ron Paul but there is just as much if not more about Rand Paul that bothers me. Gary is wrong on immigration, abortion, and FairTax but I believe him for the most part to be a good man and right on so many other issues that both the main parties get wrong, I did vote for him in the general FWIW. Some of it is a style thing too, Gary Johnson is more of a pragmatist and likes to talk about the cost-benefit analysis of everything which in a vacuum is not too bad but you need to make the emotional argument as well possibly even more.


I also voted for him in 2012, having been burned by Obama in 2008. It's funny that I like him for a lot of the reasons you don't; his immigration stance, abortion, and his pragmatism most of all, as it's how I reason. That's one of my great frustrations in politics, that the emotional argument so often beats the analytical one, on everything from drugs and incarceration to welfare to economics, the dispassionate but accurate person is actually at a disadvantage to the angry demagogue.

That being said, I welcome the presence of Trump in this election, if for no other reason than to disrupt the status quo and maybe get people to think about how broken our political system is. That he sends my enemies into conniption fits doesn't hurt either. :lol:


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28 Dec 2015, 7:06 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Well there are/were certain things about Gary Johnson that I disliked and he doesn't compare to Ron Paul but there is just as much if not more about Rand Paul that bothers me. Gary is wrong on immigration, abortion, and FairTax but I believe him for the most part to be a good man and right on so many other issues that both the main parties get wrong, I did vote for him in the general FWIW. Some of it is a style thing too, Gary Johnson is more of a pragmatist and likes to talk about the cost-benefit analysis of everything which in a vacuum is not too bad but you need to make the emotional argument as well possibly even more.


I also voted for him in 2012, having been burned by Obama in 2008. It's funny that I like him for a lot of the reasons you don't; his immigration stance, abortion, and his pragmatism most of all, as it's how I reason. That's one of my great frustrations in politics, that the emotional argument so often beats the analytical one, on everything from drugs and incarceration to welfare to economics, the dispassionate but accurate person is actually at a disadvantage to the angry demagogue.

That being said, I welcome the presence of Trump in this election, if for no other reason than to disrupt the status quo and maybe get people to think about how broken our political system is. That he sends my enemies into conniption fits doesn't hurt either. :lol:


No point being frustrated with it, all you can do is learn from it. I thought Ron Paul was great at framing things from a moral perspective but that is something Rand struggles with. Trump has been a real education, demagoguery is an effective tool against the political establishment and it's allies in the media. I posted a thread about an article Murray Rothbard wrote about demagogues, I thought it was really interesting and correct in it's line of thinking so maybe you'd be interested in reading it. I doesn't matter how logical or reasonable your argument is if the other side is claiming moral superiority, this is the only way you can win in a democracy. It's a rigged game so you'd be a fool to play fair, Trump is proving that is possible to go over the establishment's heads and make your emotional appeal straight to the masses. Now Trump isn't an ideal candidate by any stretch but he is strong on a few issues no one else is and he'd at the very worst destroy the current political order. Now I take everything he says with a grain of salt, I know he's a guy that likes to pull chains and to me it is obvious what he is doing and I think it has all been careful planned and executed. Oh man, Hillary vs Trump in a debate would be epic since Trump isn't afraid to talk about everything in her past in detail. I believe she should be going to prison, if not then there should be articles of impeachment on day 1.



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29 Dec 2015, 12:04 am

Found this little gem on Slate talking about Rob Ford up in Canada:

Quote:

Toronto mayoralty campaigns are gruelling 10-month marathons in which the winner is often the one who makes the fewest mistakes. Most contenders couldn’t survive even one major slip-up. Toward the midpoint of the campaign, there were several moments when even Ford appeared to teeter on the edge of self-destruction. One incident involved Ford offering to try to score OxyContin for a campaign supporter, another a 10-year-old conviction for drunk driving. But after the media and his opponents attacked him for such behaviour, Ford’s numbers went up.

For Kouvalis, the defining “wind in our sails” came during a televised all-candidates’ debate. The moderator cued up a shot of Sri Lankan refugees on a boat headed for Canada and asked whether Canada should accept them. “NOPE!” said Rob Ford. “Right now, we can’t even deal with the 2.5 million people we have in the city. I think it is more important to take care of people who are here now before we start bringing in more people.”

His opponents were delighted. One declared it “a turning point in the election” that would “awaken Torontonians to what he’s all about.” Another held a press conference to declare, “I am offended. I am appalled. And I believe this man is unfit to be mayor.” Five days later, Ford’s support rose to 44 percent.

Not only did controversy solidify Ford’s core vote, it kept him as the center of attention. “There was no oxygen available for any of the other campaigns,” observed Mitch Wexler. “None of the other candidates could get in a word edgewise. They couldn’t present their campaigns. There was simply no room.”


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... onald.html

Sounds real familiar, right?


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29 Dec 2015, 10:59 am



they're going to be repeating stuff like this until election day

Hillary couldn't wish for a worse opponent



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06 Jan 2016, 1:41 am

In regards to the election, every candidate is a turd. There's no reincarnation of Lincoln or Jefferson here. Nope. And that is why I vote "other". There's no real point in not voting IMO, and both Trump and Hillary are flawed in their ways. Although, I'd sooner vote Trump than Hillary, personally. As crazy as Trump is, I find the notion of giving somebody the Presidency because they have a vagina as even more crazy.


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06 Jan 2016, 7:18 am

Trump??? I might vote for trump? Not likely! I have a university degree. The majority of Trump supporters have at most a High School diploma. They lack basic critical thinking skills and make their decisions entirely on what entertains them.
Trump's big issues?
1. Immigration. Have you ever been mugged by a Mexican? Do you want to harvest cabbages? Let them have those jobs. Immigration is as important as littering.
2. A wall??? Mexixo will pay for it???? DUH, anyone that cannot see that that is stupid will not understand any explanation.
3. A vastly stronger military while lowering taxes and lowering the deficit? Violates basic arithmetic.
4. Islamic extremists? Why do what ISIS wants? In the middle east ISIS is called daesh. An insult. The Muslims in the middle east do not think of daesh as Muslim. Why alienate our allies????
Trump is not stupid. He doesnt believe in the nonsense he says. He is a showman. He knows how to amuse the sheeple and keep their attention on him, like deer frozen looking into a headlight.


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06 Jan 2016, 9:49 am

A debate style that calls everyone but yourself uneducated and lacking in basic thinking skills, will not get far.

Trump or Hillary gets Trump supporters, and no Hillary supporters. As close as they come is claiming all Trump supporters are inbred rednecks.

As long as Hillary kept her mouth shut, Trump ignored her, when she opened her mouth, he quickly made her new years resolution to not talk about Trump.

Trump is running for the Republican nomination. Hillary got on the wrong stage. It is understandable, after the stroke, people forget things, like calling Trump sexist, and forgetting the number of rape complaints her husband has. Monica is going public, giving TED Talks, about how she was a twenty two year old that was taken advantage of. She did not go public back then for fame as the Oval Office Slut.

Trump is running for the Republican Nomination. He leads among the Christians, the Conservatives, Republican men and women. He has almost twice the support of the second place guy.

Trump gets turnout, he fills speaking halls, has high TV numbers, and UTube views. He is everywhere in the media.

All the other Republicans speak of Trump. The Democrats speak of Trump.

Republican rank and file have a long standing dislike of the leadership. Some like me say, I did not leave the party, it left me. Trump is our ticket to recover the party.

Trump does not have to win the President to lead us to taking back the party. Lots of people dislike the Republican Party, most of them are Republicans.

Trump has the support, he gets attention, he is an active speaker. If he does not get the nomination it will split the party.

If anyone read, in The Art of the Deal, Trump says, be loud and blow smoke, make the other side have to make offers, turn them down, be insulting, tire them out, and just when they think it impossible, put a hundred page contract on the table.

Trump has a very professional and detailed plan for fixing America, but he is saving it for the general election. He is not going to give his platform to the Republicans before he has the nomination.

Trump has a warehouse of things to use on Hillary. That she belongs in prison and her husband is a rapist is just the surface. Trump has professional dirt diggers, and the Clintons have Professional dirt going way back.

Trump has an army of Lawyers and Accountants. President of the United States is likely smaller than some of the deals he has done. He is not just talking about taxes, he has the leading world tax people on his team. They could restructure the entire Tax Code. He could staff the IRS.

Sure, Trump is being the showman. It is working, but as we get close to the election, the Businessman, and the Statesman, will emerge.

Trump wins, he likes to win, he knows how to win.



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06 Jan 2016, 11:20 pm

^^^
Trump has support of Christians? Well, sure, if you're talking about evangelicals.
And Bill Clinton is a rapist? Sure, he's skirt chaser and disloyal husband, but a rapist? Just who did he rape?


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Jacoby
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06 Jan 2016, 11:30 pm

Image



Kraichgauer
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06 Jan 2016, 11:44 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Image


Was Bill Clinton ever convicted of raping this woman? If he did commit such a terrible crime, then he's a worthless POS. But the fact remains, in this country, one is innocent till proven guilty.


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Jacoby
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06 Jan 2016, 11:54 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Image


Was Bill Clinton ever convicted of raping this woman? If he did commit such a terrible crime, then he's a worthless POS. But the fact remains, in this country, one is innocent till proven guilty.


It's 2016, we believe women who say they were raped now. Don't you take the accusations against Bill Cosby seriously? Never been convicted of anything and probably never will. Hillary is a vindictive enabler, slut shamer, and total hypocrite.



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07 Jan 2016, 12:12 am

Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Image


Was Bill Clinton ever convicted of raping this woman? If he did commit such a terrible crime, then he's a worthless POS. But the fact remains, in this country, one is innocent till proven guilty.


It's 2016, we believe women who say they were raped now. Don't you take the accusations against Bill Cosby seriously? Never been convicted of anything and probably never will. Hillary is a vindictive enabler, slut shamer, and total hypocrite.


I sense a certain sarcasm in your post.


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luan78zao
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07 Jan 2016, 12:20 am

Inventor wrote:
Trump has a very professional and detailed plan for fixing America, but he is saving it for the general election. He is not going to give his platform to the Republicans before he has the nomination.


Evidence for this?


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07 Jan 2016, 2:16 am

His stump speech, even early details have been dropped, do not give them anything to use against you, or steal.

Build Wall, half of it exists, deport Illegals, we are, 2,000,000 a year. They can agree, or come out for tearing down the border, and stopping deporting illegals.

I have been pushing raising the Social Security tax from $117,000 top to $250,000 top. Some guy named Bernie published it as his idea.

Trump has a platform that works, he can get the nomination by staying on message.

He does not need a more detailed plan until the Democrats have presented theirs. Theirs seems to be retro more of the same, all Trump needs is to discredit Hillary, not hard, and offer a general program of tax and debt reduction.

To do what he claims, takes a rewrite of the Tax Code, and likely a rewrite of the WTO. No one would understand it, he should wait and present it to Congress. It will be trial by press if they do not agree.

First rule of most things, do not organize your opposition.

Consider Obama Care, it was brought in and voted on, signed into law, without being read.

Republican control of Congress is good for ten years. Your jobs are safe unless you cross Trump.

Trump does not need a plan, he is running on the fact that 85-87% of the people are very dissatisfied with government.

Their main issues are employment, the economy, illegals, security, and Trump is at the top of all polls on those subjects.

My view, Trump gets sworn in, we show up with torches and pitchforks for a welcome. Trump submits a revised tax Code to Congress, which goes into effect in 2017. Trump has said, lower rates, and less deductions. He has come out against Carried Interest, Capital Gains, Dividends, saying they should be taxed as ordinary income. I can see the Social Security cap being raised to $250,000, because so many depend on Social Security.

Overall, it has to bring in more. About 25% more just to stop going into debt.

Next comes Trump's appointments to run the government. Putin is busy, Natalia refuses to leave Crimea, the political class is very weak, I project outsiders and women.

To govern is much harder than getting elected.



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07 Jan 2016, 3:16 am

Inventor wrote:
Trump does not need a plan


You should have just gone with that and saved a lot of typing.

Donald Trump is a lifelong Democrat who made much of his money through government "pull" or by using Eminent Domain to expropriate other people's property. He never talks about the Constitution, or the nation's founding principles, or free enterprise – but he's all in favor of fully socialized medicine. 

I don't believe he has a secret plan, or any other kind of plan. The whole premise of the Trump campaign has been: if we just give unlimited power to a "competent" person – self-described, of course – he will somehow, on the fly, without referring to the country's core principles or indeed to any ideology at all – be able to make the decisions which will "make America great again."

If someone is reading this and thinking "That sounds like the main Democratic theme, going back to FDR at least" – you're right. Personal style aside, the main difference between Donald Trump and Barack Obama is that Obama isn't an old friend of Hillary Clinton's. 


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07 Jan 2016, 11:39 am

luan78zao wrote:
Inventor wrote:
Trump does not need a plan


You should have just gone with that and saved a lot of typing.

Donald Trump is a lifelong Democrat who made much of his money through government "pull" or by using Eminent Domain to expropriate other people's property. He never talks about the Constitution, or the nation's founding principles, or free enterprise – but he's all in favor of fully socialized medicine. 

I don't believe he has a secret plan, or any other kind of plan. The whole premise of the Trump campaign has been: if we just give unlimited power to a "competent" person – self-described, of course – he will somehow, on the fly, without referring to the country's core principles or indeed to any ideology at all – be able to make the decisions which will "make America great again."

If someone is reading this and thinking "That sounds like the main Democratic theme, going back to FDR at least" – you're right. Personal style aside, the main difference between Donald Trump and Barack Obama is that Obama isn't an old friend of Hillary Clinton's. 


FDR went to extreme measures to save capitalism from itself, and thereby save the country, but was hardly ruling with absolute power. And if you're referring to Obama's use of executive order, the fact is, Republican Presidents had used that power more often than the current President.


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