American Civil War

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DejaQ
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28 May 2007, 4:28 pm

skafather84 wrote:

ask the WWII vets who fought in japan what they think of nuking the hell out of japan twice instead of going to war forever in japan. i'm sure they'd say the end justifies the means in that case.

You could try to sacrifice one life if you think it will save one hundred more, but what if that sacrifice leads to two hundred deaths? I believe that you can never perform a morally reprehensible act just because you think you might get lucky. When the U.S. launched the Bay of Pigs Invasion to depose Castro and install a democratic government in Cuba, they ended up with their forces captured and having to deliver medical supplies to Castro in exchange for their freedom.

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DoubleFeed
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28 May 2007, 6:21 pm

DejaQ wrote:

DoubleFeed wrote:

Did you read the Declarations of Secession?

If I get what you're trying to say, slavery created the political schism that eventually led the southern states to secede, but it didn't start the war. The war was started when the Union failed to recognize the Confederacy's boundaries by refusing to withdraw from Fort Sumter.

Despite the fact that Lincoln didn't get any electoral college votes from the southern states, he still managed to win the election, because the population of the South wasn't large enough. Technically, since they weren't represented, I think they had every right to separate.

I don't know if modern society would be any better had the war not been fought (in fact, it could have been worse - in all likelihood we could have two countries recognizing slavery instead of one without it), but I don't think the ends can ever be used justify the means.

I wasn't trying to say anything except what I said.

DejaQ
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28 May 2007, 6:23 pm

DoubleFeed wrote:

I wasn't trying to say anything except what I said.

I see...

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DoubleFeed
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28 May 2007, 6:42 pm

DejaQ wrote:

DoubleFeed wrote:

I wasn't trying to say anything except what I said.

I see...

Did you read the Declarations?

DejaQ
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28 May 2007, 7:12 pm

DoubleFeed wrote:

DejaQ wrote:

DoubleFeed wrote:

I wasn't trying to say anything except what I said.

I see...

Did you read the Declarations?

I've seen excerpts.

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DoubleFeed
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28 May 2007, 7:14 pm

DejaQ wrote:

DoubleFeed wrote:

DejaQ wrote:

DoubleFeed wrote:

I wasn't trying to say anything except what I said.

I see...

Did you read the Declarations?

I've seen excerpts.

How much did they challenge the conventional wisdom from each side that the war either was or was not about slavery?

DejaQ
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28 May 2007, 7:16 pm

They said they declared independence because of slavery, if that's what you're looking for.

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DoubleFeed
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28 May 2007, 7:30 pm

DejaQ wrote:

They said they declared independence because of slavery, if that's what you're looking for.

"Looking for" stuff is for NTs. :wink:

If I remember correctly, they all mentioned slavery, and several of them pointed to other reasons for secession. If there was something I was looking for, it was a critical analysis of all of the DoSs, as seen in the eyes of history.

skafather84
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28 May 2007, 8:08 pm

DoubleFeed wrote:

DejaQ wrote:

DoubleFeed wrote:

I wasn't trying to say anything except what I said.

I see...

Did you read the Declarations?

i've read the whole thing before. i like the part about no riders on laws. a lot of the rules they were looking to set up would actually put more of a limit on various trade and such...but at the same time, who knows how those laws would have eventually developed over time independent of the union.

pandabear
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19 Mar 2010, 7:24 pm

It seems to be very popular, especially in the South, to deny the role of slavery in precipitating the Civil War.

Here is an article on neo-Confederates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Confederate

When you ask for a specific reason for why the Southern States rebelled, you get some wishy-washy nonsense, but full assurance that slavery had absolutely nothing to do with it.

The Southern States started the actual violence by firing on Fort Sumter--and they have this twisted around that it was the fault of the Yankees who caused the Southerners to attack the fort.

fidelis
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19 Mar 2010, 8:07 pm

Cyanide wrote:

I think it would be interesting to see what would have happened if either a) The South won the war or b) The civil war never happened, and we just let the Confederates exist.

That's what I want to know. Sometimes I just want southern politics to be completely separate from ours. To be fair, I think one should be allowed to travel from one side to the other like it is now. This way when someone forms an opinion, they can move in with whichever breed of bigot they want (lets face it, the north isn't as enlightened as we claim to be.)

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MissConstrue
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19 Mar 2010, 8:09 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZYgXrUSjIs[/youtube]

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pandabear
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19 Mar 2010, 8:13 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nGw_vAnqPI[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nGw_vAnqPI

ruveyn
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19 Mar 2010, 8:14 pm

pandabear wrote:

When you ask for a specific reason for why the Southern States rebelled, you get some wishy-washy nonsense, but full assurance that slavery had absolutely nothing to do with it.

The rebs almost never referred to slavery as slavery. The called it "our peculiar institution".

ruveyn

MissConstrue
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19 Mar 2010, 8:57 pm

pandabear wrote:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nGw_vAnqPI[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nGw_vAnqPI

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPhq6StlV94[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPhq6StlV94

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Awesomelyglorious
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19 Mar 2010, 10:03 pm

pandabear wrote:

The Southern States started the actual violence by firing on Fort Sumter--and they have this twisted around that it was the fault of the Yankees who caused the Southerners to attack the fort.

Well.... actually it was the fault of the Yankees. Fort Sumter was in South Carolina, a state that seceded from the Union. The South asked for withdrawal from Fort Sumter regarding this as their property(after all, it is in their state), and the Union didn't do this but rather sought to fortify this Fort. So, the South attacked.

What would you expect these people to do? Let a foreign army sit around in territory that they regard as their own? Of course they attacked!

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