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Tequila
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07 Apr 2016, 11:47 am

AspE wrote:
Frontpagemag is a BS right wing rag.


Does it make any of it actually untrue?

The Muslims are trying their best to reconquer and recolonise the Land of Israel, after the native inhabitants - the Jews - won back control from them. As he points out, Muslims in Israel are there the same reason that there are Muslims in India, and why Muslims will soon try to take over Europe - because they are colonisers. Everywhere you look, from Africa to the Indian subcontinent and Indonesia, Muslims have conquered and subdued the native populations and forced Islam on them. The British too were colonisers and conquerors once, but we have had the sense to give our colonies independence, sometimes through violence, sometimes peacefully. Muslims still think of their conquests in a good light.

The word 'Palestine' has been used by colonisers of the Land of Israel for millennia - from the Romans, to the British and now to the Arabs.

The reason why Muslims are trying to recolonise Israel against the native Jews by war and violence is for the same reason that they one day dream of retaking Spain - the idea of what was formerly lorded over by Muslims being ruled by (sometimes native, sometimes not) non-Muslims is anathema to them.

Islamists and jihadists see no difference between war on Israel and war on the West - both must submit to almighty Allah.



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07 Apr 2016, 12:29 pm

You can't colonize a place where you already live. A small population of Jews were among the many different native inhabitants. Most religions try to become dominant, it's what they do. That's why a secular government is the only just form of government.



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07 Apr 2016, 12:32 pm

AspE wrote:
Zionism is the belief that there should be a state just for Jews, with Jewish issues the predominant concern. This constitutes a theocracy, which I oppose, and obviously violates the rights of everyone who isn't a Jew.



And yet, Jews aren't merely a religion but an ethnicity and a cultural group. The picture I posted isn't just ONE "stupid" person, it's actually quite symbolic. I don't think it is merely a coincidence that Hamas, Hezbollah, and other militant islamic groups waging war on Israel use the Nazi salute. And back in the 60s, Egyptian leader Gamal Abdel Nasser hired ex-Nazi rocketdyne engineers for the Egyptian missile program(which of course were intended to be used against Israel).

Israel does NOT universally exclude non-Jews from entering or living in the state of Israel or even voting in elections. Unlike Saudi Arabia where Jews are forbidden to enter the country. The 2 state solution isn't good enough for you, eh? Because that means acknowledging the right of a Jewish state to exist beside muslim states.



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07 Apr 2016, 12:48 pm

I understand there are a lot of harsh feelings on both sides. But you can't use those feelings, created by war and killing, to justify further oppression. Israel has no interest in a Palestinian state. They are doing nothing in anticipation of such a "solution". And they have no interest in a unified state, which, if truly Democratic, would make Jews a minority.



Tequila
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07 Apr 2016, 12:56 pm

AspE wrote:
You can't colonize a place where you already live.


Yes you can.

Non-Native North Americans aren't indigenous to North America, non-Aboriginal Australians and New Zealanders aren't native to Australia or New Zealand. They were (and are) colonisers, using colonial names.

Somehow the people demanding that Israelis pull down their state and leave their homeland aren't also demanding that non-Native Americans leave the USA and Canada, because they are many of the same people.



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07 Apr 2016, 2:17 pm

I don't want Israelis to leave or Israel to no longer exist, just that they accept they have to live with everyone and treat them as equals. Just like every other civilized nation.



Tequila
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07 Apr 2016, 2:33 pm

AspE wrote:
I don't want Israelis to leave or Israel to no longer exist, just that they accept they have to live with everyone and treat them as equals.


They already do that.

Arab Israelis are equal citizens of Israel and form 20% of the population of the state. They work, shop, socialise and learn as equals. They don't always live together - there are both integrated and segregated living areas in Israel - but both sides are reasonably happy with the status quo. (Arabs wouldn't be welcome to live in all Jewish areas, and the reverse is also true - I wouldn't want to be a Jew living in an Arab town.)

As for Judea and Samaria - Israeli governance doesn't cover the vast majority of those Arabs living there. They are governed by the Palestinian Authority, which is extremely corrupt and racist.

Gaza - the same applies with regard to Hamas' Islamism, racism and corruption, as well as their terrorism and violence. Gazans never see an Israeli, apart from on television. All the Israelis were pulled out of Gaza more than ten years ago.

The 'anti-Zionist' Arab MKs of Israel are frequently extremely provocative, in a way that is unnecessary - i.e. visiting the families of those that have murdered Israeli Jews, joining illegal flotillas against legal Israeli blockades, that sort of thing. The best thing the Arab MKs could do is instead of constantly agitating against Israel is to represent their (Arab) constituents to the best of their ability. They could make sure that they get a fair shout in Israel - and by and large they do. Most of the problems in Arab towns - like corruption and crime - are not the fault of Israel. Some Arab towns do not have the amenities of Jewish towns because of these problems.



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07 Apr 2016, 2:39 pm

AspE wrote:
Zionism is the belief that there should be a state just for Jews, with Jewish issues the predominant concern.


Zionism is the belief that Jews should settle in the Land of Israel, and that Arabs should have the same rights as Jews.

"In the Jewish State, Jews will not have any right that is denied to Arabs, Greeks, or Armenians, if they are residents and citizens of the the State. Every citizen, Jewish, Arab or any other will be eligible to be elected to be president, prime minister, a justice of the high court or any other government office, important or minor… We will need to concern ourselves with health and education, development and all the other services for Arab villages, no less than for those Jewish villages."
David Ben-Gurion



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07 Apr 2016, 2:40 pm

That's what I'm talking about. Israel excludes most of the Arabs from the political process. They use as an excuse that they are governed by the PA, which is clearly a form of apartheid. South Africa used to have the same system, they called them bantustans.



Tequila
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07 Apr 2016, 2:56 pm

AspE wrote:
That's what I'm talking about. Israel excludes most of the Arabs from the political process.


The Palestinian Arabs have their own elections and their own government. Well, they would have if Mahmoud Abbas had called them.

The bantustans were ultimately governed by South Africa. The Palestinian Authority is not governed by Israel. (I don't think the Israelis would allow the daily incitement and hate to be pumped out of PA media if it was.)

By the way, Israelis living in Judea and Samaria don't vote in Palestinian elections either.

The point of South African apartheid was to discriminate against black and coloured people. That is not the intention of the current situation with regard to Israel. (If it was, they would have disallowed over a million Israeli Arabs from voting.)

By the way - aren't the populations of the Palestinian Authority and Hamas rather racist?



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07 Apr 2016, 3:07 pm

No more racist than Israeli Jews. From personal experience. And how convenient it is that Israel can allow just enough Arabs to vote that they don't have any real influence. Israel is pursuing a strategy of divide, marginalize, and conquer. I'm sure Palestinian policy is no less egregious.



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07 Apr 2016, 3:20 pm

AspE wrote:
No more racist than Israeli Jews.


But do Israeli Jews widely support murdering Palestinian Arabs in acts of 'resistance'?



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07 Apr 2016, 3:46 pm

Obviously. Because they do kill thousands of them.



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07 Apr 2016, 4:38 pm

AspE wrote:
Obviously. Because they do kill thousands of them.


That is because the Hamas Rocketeers insist on setting up fire bases behind baby cribs and in front of hospitals.

The IDF attacks the attackers, not the general public. The Attackers know this which is why they set up to make sure innocent people will be killed.


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07 Apr 2016, 6:37 pm

BaalChatzaf wrote:
AspE wrote:
Obviously. Because they do kill thousands of them.


That is because the Hamas Rocketeers insist on setting up fire bases behind baby cribs and in front of hospitals.

The IDF attacks the attackers, not the general public. The Attackers know this which is why they set up to make sure innocent people will be killed.

And for no reason at all. What's got into them?



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08 Apr 2016, 10:39 am

AspE wrote:
Zionism is the belief that there should be a state just for Jews, with Jewish issues the predominant concern. This constitutes a theocracy, which I oppose, and obviously violates the rights of everyone who isn't a Jew.



And if Israel were to revert to a secular, majority rule democracy the Arabs would soon become a majority. The Palestinian Arabs are actively trying to outbreed Israeli Jews. So they would elect Arab leaders who would strip Jews of their civil rights and force them into Ghettos where they'd be subjected to pogroms and forced to pay a "jizya"(religious tax). There IS something called tyranny of the majority which is precisely what would happen in a purely secular, democratic Israel. Democracy is a form of government that middle easterners refuse to accept and whenever it is imposed it's quickly abrogated.

So Israel is indeed acting in its interest of self-preservation by not giving Arabs the political power to vote on Jewish rights.