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RetroGamer87
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27 Feb 2018, 4:49 am

Pepe wrote:
Mikah wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
So are you going to drive all the Muslims out of the UK with conflict?


It seems the most likely outcome.


Firstly, this is your observation/speculation rather than something you are advocating...

However... :mrgreen:
Isn't America the land of the mutts?
A great melting pot of different cultures which has assimilated rather successfully?
The same applies to Australia...

Before Australia became the land of mutts our ancestors killed half the native population, took their land by force, hunted them for sport, assimilated them into our culture, forced them into our religion, made them live in poverty and made many of them forget their own language.

Who's to say the next set of invaders won't do to us what we did to the aboriginals?


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adifferentname
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27 Feb 2018, 7:39 am

Pepe wrote:
Mikah wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
So are you going to drive all the Muslims out of the UK with conflict?


It seems the most likely outcome.


Firstly, this is your observation/speculation rather than something you are advocating...

However... :mrgreen:
Isn't America the land of the mutts?
A great melting pot of different cultures which has assimilated rather successfully?
The same applies to Australia...

Not everything is harmonious, but it does seem to work overall without the need to expel certain cultural segments of the citizenry...


It's not as if 'murrica has been an idyllic land of peace, love and civil obedience, either. It hasn't quite descended into all-out civil war, but the potential is certainly there - although I'd place it a few steps behind several European nations, currently.



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27 Feb 2018, 8:03 am

The_Walrus wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Poland is a totalitarian regime, or the EU would not react as they currently do.


"Do as we demand, Poland, or we'll sanction you and remove your right to take part in votes".

But it's the Poles who are being totalitarian? :roll:

:roll:
"Hey er we're just going to criminalise historians and end judicial independence."
"The rules of our club say you can't do that."
"wtf so much for the tolerant left I thought you liked freedom?"


Not sure how that undermines my charge of hypocrisy.

PiS formed a parliamentary majority on a manifesto which included a promise of judicial reform. The people gave them a democratic mandate. The EC is fighting for the rule of EU law, not the independence of Polish law, in its references to Article 7. Unless their intention is for Poland to be the next to trigger Article 50, they might want to reconsider their position.



The_Walrus
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27 Feb 2018, 9:35 am

Mikah wrote:
Not once have humans put down their arms and embraced, assimilated, integrated and sought a shared future.

What about England? A white Englishman today is a mongrel. There's no way you could see further conflict between Normans, Saxons, and Celts. Sure, there were battles and persecution hundreds of years ago, but that was in a much more warlike time. In the last hundred years, various ethnic groups have integrated into our society without major conflict and I see no reason why you'd expect there to suddenly be a conflict in the future.



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27 Feb 2018, 9:36 am

adifferentname wrote:

Not sure how that undermines my charge of hypocrisy.

Because standing up to totalitarianism isn't totalitarian.



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27 Feb 2018, 9:45 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Mikah wrote:
Not once have humans put down their arms and embraced, assimilated, integrated and sought a shared future.

What about England? A white Englishman today is a mongrel. There's no way you could see further conflict between Normans, Saxons, and Celts. Sure, there were battles and persecution hundreds of years ago, but that was in a much more warlike time. In the last hundred years, various ethnic groups have integrated into our society without major conflict and I see no reason why you'd expect there to suddenly be a conflict in the future.

Don't forget the Angles, Picts and other factions.


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27 Feb 2018, 1:07 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Mikah wrote:
Not once have humans put down their arms and embraced, assimilated, integrated and sought a shared future.

What about England? A white Englishman today is a mongrel. There's no way you could see further conflict between Normans, Saxons, and Celts. Sure, there were battles and persecution hundreds of years ago, but that was in a much more warlike time. In the last hundred years, various ethnic groups have integrated into our society without major conflict and I see no reason why you'd expect there to suddenly be a conflict in the future.


Its true that modern day Britons are descended from various waves of invaders but the vast majority of our DNA comes from prehistoric tribes. Never in our history has our Island had no many foreigners in it that includes times we have been colonised.



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27 Feb 2018, 2:14 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
adifferentname wrote:

Not sure how that undermines my charge of hypocrisy.

Because standing up to totalitarianism isn't totalitarian.


They're not "standing up to totalitarianism", they're trying to enact their own, and doing so in direct opposition to will of the Polish electorate.

If nothing else, you would think they would have learned their lesson after the Haider mess.



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27 Feb 2018, 2:52 pm

Pepe wrote:
Firstly, this is your observation/speculation rather than something you are advocating...

However... :mrgreen:
Isn't America the land of the mutts?
A great melting pot of different cultures which has assimilated rather successfully?
The same applies to Australia...

Not everything is harmonious, but it does seem to work overall without the need to expel certain cultural segments of the citizenry...


It's observation. Besides no one needs to advocate conflict, Muslim nutbags have already fired the first shots. Blowing up little girls a perfect casus belli for whatever follows.

As for America, it's interesting. The melting pot as you know came from a play by a Jewish immigrant. It was something of a fever dream, maybe even propaganda, not reality. The USA, in its short history it has shown the limits of what can be done when nation building and what cannot. Some observations.

1) It seems that with a great commitment to social engineering through the schools, you can see a measure of integration of racially (as in looks) similar human groups. Enough that the country won't split itself apart anyway.
2) Even though integration of different Europeans is possible, it is not perfect. Remnants of ancestry remain even to this day, and can be measured in political statistics. States formed primarily by immigration from more socialist parts of Europe, remain more socialist etc. Talking generalities, the voting patterns of states are determined primarily by which human groups immigrated there, whether we are talking about recent immigration or not. A more specific example: descendants of Irish immigrants (supposedly as American as apple pie now) still care a great deal about Ireland, enough to vote based on US foreign policy towards Ireland and are often still outright hostile to the English (I've heard stories of people with English accents being refused service in Irish pubs). The melting pot is not so homogeneous, even after several generations. It has bits in it, sometimes big ugly chunks. I'm not sure how much these are failures of social engineering or genetic holdovers, but it's interesting nonetheless.
3) The reason America has strayed so far from its original founding vision, is mainly due to immigration from non-Anglo (and to a lesser extent non-Germanic) European societies. Immigration changes the character of a nation, even when it doesn't end in violence, no matter how hard you try to stop it. To desire immigration is to hate your own country and wish it changed to something else.
4) Societal assimilation is impossible across the racial divide. The black descendants of slaves, as a whole, were never properly integrated, and never will be. Not an American problem, but a human problem, and no surprise if you know much world history. Even if one side opens its arms to peoples who look visibly different, including legal equality, the other still feels aggrieved, oppressed and separate. This leads to division and often unpleasant political consequences. The obvious example is what the left are complaining about right now, oh no a White demagogue is going to use fear of the other to gain power and institute a new apartheid. Thing is, this happens all over the world. Observe South America or the former colonies in Africa.


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27 Feb 2018, 2:57 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
Suncatcher wrote:
How to beat this?

Education. We MUST educate people on the flaws of human behaviour that we are born with. We must by law forbid any idealogy that wants to dominate others. This means a large portion of the koran for example is then forbidden.
Ban part of the Koran? The quickest way to make a book more popular is to ban it.


Also, they'd also have to ban parts of the bible...it blatantly encourages and justifies things like rape and slavery.


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27 Feb 2018, 3:12 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Lovecraft wrote:
AFD is just some sh***y small government and market liberalist, American style conservative party

Are you perhaps thinking of the FDP? AfD is full-blown fascist, even more so since Lucke left. They have criticised Holocaust memorials for not taking a more positive view of German history, called for refugees to be shot, and want to ban Islam in Turkey.

They're at the point where any argument that they aren't fascist would have to begin with "technically". Like, they're technically not fascist because they aren't explicitly opposed to communism or something. They're racist, nationalist authoritarians, Nazi apologists, military fetishists, reactionary misogynists. Calling them fascists is fair game at that point.

See also: Jobbik, Golden Dawn, most of FN (the dictionary example of a neo-fascist party), OVP. Even Orban and the Polish PiS couldn't really object to the accusation with their attacks on judicial independence and freedom of speech, particularly PiS denying the historical fact that Poland collaborated with the Nazis on the Holocaust.

Sounds like typical hyperbolic mainstream media fake news.
Any proffs that this is official statements from the party and not just statements from individual members?
when a political party is painted as nazis it will of course attract questionable individuals.
I also don't se how FN is "the dictionary example of a neo-fascist party", especially if you compare them to real neo-nazi parties like Golden Dawn.



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27 Feb 2018, 3:14 pm

Chronos wrote:
Lovecraft wrote:
Chronos wrote:
If we focus on only the differences between the two, fascists are forcefully exclusive and imperialists are forcefully inclusive.

But by that logic Italy wouldn't really have been fascist before 1938.


Italy no. The idea of Italy as a unified country is a fairly recent one, and someone from Naples would not have considered someone from Sicily among their countrymen.

so the the government that coined the term fascism and proudly called themself fascists wheren't fascists?
:|



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27 Feb 2018, 3:19 pm

Chronos wrote:
Italy no. The idea of Italy as a unified country is a fairly recent one, and someone from Naples would not have considered someone from Sicily among their countrymen.


What was that saying? Garibaldi didn't so much unite Italy as divide Africa? Still said to this day in some circles I believe.


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27 Feb 2018, 3:44 pm

Mikah wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Firstly, this is your observation/speculation rather than something you are advocating...

However... :mrgreen:
Isn't America the land of the mutts?
A great melting pot of different cultures which has assimilated rather successfully?
The same applies to Australia...

Not everything is harmonious, but it does seem to work overall without the need to expel certain cultural segments of the citizenry...


It's observation. Besides no one needs to advocate conflict, Muslim nutbags have already fired the first shots. Blowing up little girls a perfect casus belli for whatever follows.

As for America, it's interesting. The melting pot as you know came from a play by a Jewish immigrant. It was something of a fever dream, maybe even propaganda, not reality. The USA, in its short history it has shown the limits of what can be done when nation building and what cannot. Some observations.

1) It seems that with a great commitment to social engineering through the schools, you can see a measure of integration of racially (as in looks) similar human groups. Enough that the country won't split itself apart anyway.
2) Even though integration of different Europeans is possible, it is not perfect. Remnants of ancestry remain even to this day, and can be measured in political statistics. States formed primarily by immigration from more socialist parts of Europe, remain more socialist etc. Talking generalities, the voting patterns of states are determined primarily by which human groups immigrated there, whether we are talking about recent immigration or not. A more specific example: descendants of Irish immigrants (supposedly as American as apple pie now) still care a great deal about Ireland, enough to vote based on US foreign policy towards Ireland and are often still outright hostile to the English (I've heard stories of people with English accents being refused service in Irish pubs). The melting pot is not so homogeneous, even after several generations. It has bits in it, sometimes big ugly chunks. I'm not sure how much these are failures of social engineering or genetic holdovers, but it's interesting nonetheless.
3) The reason America has strayed so far from its original founding vision, is mainly due to immigration from non-Anglo (and to a lesser extent non-Germanic) European societies. Immigration changes the character of a nation, even when it doesn't end in violence, no matter how hard you try to stop it. To desire immigration is to hate your own country and wish it changed to something else.
4) Societal assimilation is impossible across the racial divide. The black descendants of slaves, as a whole, were never properly integrated, and never will be. Not an American problem, but a human problem, and no surprise if you know much world history. Even if one side opens its arms to peoples who look visibly different, including legal equality, the other still feels aggrieved, oppressed and separate. This leads to division and often unpleasant political consequences. The obvious example is what the left are complaining about right now, oh no a White demagogue is going to use fear of the other to gain power and institute a new apartheid. Thing is, this happens all over the world. Observe South America or the former colonies in Africa.


Perhaps a melting pot is the wrong image. Think more of a stew, with each different meats and vegetables, herbs and spices, standing out, but still overall providing a delicious meal. I'm largely of German ancestry, and I feel a great deal of pride about that, but first and foremost, I'm an American. That's how most Americans feel. Plus, the notion that the descendants of African slaves have never been assimilated is overblown.


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27 Feb 2018, 5:36 pm

Mikah wrote:
3) The reason America has strayed so far from its original founding vision, is mainly due to immigration from non-Anglo (and to a lesser extent non-Germanic) European societies. Immigration changes the character of a nation, even when it doesn't end in violence, no matter how hard you try to stop it. To desire immigration is to hate your own country and wish it changed to something else.

Which groups have caused America to stray from its original founding vision?


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27 Feb 2018, 6:28 pm

Populations and societies are always transforming, very often due to immigration. That is the way the world has always been, and always will be, and no degree of nativism will change that fact.


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