Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

China is playing a “hundred-year game” towards “world domina

Page 4 of 6 [ 91 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 70
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

18 Feb 2023, 9:01 pm

Japan was also notorious for thinking ...in the long term of decades. In contrast to the US mentality of only thinking as far ahead as the next election. It is an Asian thing, and it cultural, not racial.

Whether the China is doing it (it would be totally in character if they did) and whether it would come close to succeeding is an open question.



Minder
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

Joined: 29 Feb 2016
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 219

18 Feb 2023, 9:09 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Japan was also notorious for thinking ...in the long term of decades. In contrast to the US mentality of only thinking as far ahead as the next election. It is an Asian thing, and it cultural, not racial.

Whether the China is doing it (it would be totally in character if they did) and whether it would come close to succeeding is an open question.


Well, check out Japan's economy and see how they're doing. They're starting on what, the fourth lost decade?

There was a time when everyone was convinced Japan would take over the world. People used a lot of the same kind of language: they're patient, they always do their homework, etc, etc. But it turned out Japan failed to account for its internal problems (problems that most in the West wouldn't really be aware of).

The PRC is trying to become the dominant power. I do not think they can succeed for a variety of reasons. But they may cause tremendous damage in the attempt.



Last edited by Minder on 18 Feb 2023, 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lecia_Wynter
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 16 Dec 2022
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 411

18 Feb 2023, 9:10 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Japan was also notorious for thinking ...in the long term of decades. In contrast to the US mentality of only thinking as far ahead as the next election. It is an Asian thing, and it cultural, not racial.

Whether the China is doing it (it would be totally in character if they did) and whether it would come close to succeeding is an open question.


Culture and race often doesn't exist in a vacuum. Are there scientific studies about this particular curiosity?

And what of it? What if scientists find out that Asians do indeed plan long term? Some might view that as a genetic advantage. Then that would be viewed as racism against whites. In videogames there are usually pros and cons to each thing. Why can't people accept there may be racial differences on the genetic level.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

18 Feb 2023, 9:10 pm

Minder wrote:
Stop f*****g lecturing me like you're some sort of expert. You have a consistent tendency to describe East Asians in the most negative possible light. I remember the s**t you said about us in the thread regarding Harvard admissions, and again in the Korean stampede. You'll never fail to bring up some kind of negative aspect and ascribe it to all of us.

That's why I don't care that you've spent time in Asia or have read books by notable Asians. All you did was use them to confirm and justify your expectations. I guarantee you that I know more about Chinese and Japanese history than you do. That's why I know China is cyclical (which is one of the most basic elements of its history), and tends to have internal problems that destabilize the current regime to the point of collapse.

You, on the other hand, filter everything through this Yellow Peril BS.


I have never used the "yellow peril" analogy )you are putting words in my mouth"

Sure, I'll not post directly to you as you seem triggered. But please remember that a an open forum/debate usually requires evidence for points made which I have provided. You on the other hand seem to be (and rather aggressively) suggesting your opinion that China has/is too unstable to consider global expansion. Forgive me if your personal opinions lack credibility.

You seem to accuse me of being uneducated on these matters yet I am merely translating conventional wisdom that is published in Ivy league universities on the subject of long term plans China has for global dominance
https://carnegieendowment.org/2020/05/2 ... -pub-81908

Its not actually rocket science. There is an enormous body of scholarly work on Chinese history and it would be foolish and naive to think the current Chinese leadership don't have long term goals of global expansion,



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

18 Feb 2023, 9:13 pm

Lecia_Wynter wrote:
Culture and race often doesn't exist in a vacuum. Are there scientific studies about this particular curiosity?

And what of it? What if scientists find out that Asians do indeed plan long term?


Apparently saying this (which is evidence based) get's a moderator warning so just be careful.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 70
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

18 Feb 2023, 9:31 pm

Lecia_Wynter wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Japan was also notorious for thinking ...in the long term of decades. In contrast to the US mentality of only thinking as far ahead as the next election. It is an Asian thing, and it cultural, not racial.

Whether the China is doing it (it would be totally in character if they did) and whether it would come close to succeeding is an open question.


Culture and race often doesn't exist in a vacuum. Are there scientific studies about this particular curiosity?

And what of it? What if scientists find out that Asians do indeed plan long term? Some might view that as a genetic advantage. Then that would be viewed as racism against whites. In videogames there are usually pros and cons to each thing. Why can't people accept there may be racial differences on the genetic level.


Thats whole nother can of worms. We are not talking about race per se. I was simply expressing agreement with cyber,AND my agreement with Minder (shake hands you two).


The obvious reason that 'no one accepts it' is that there is little evidence for the KIND of 'racial differences' you're talking about. Culture and history are more than enough to explain it.


The long term thinking may not even go that deep even culturally for the simple reason that Europe and America accidentally stumbled into the Industrial Revolution of the 1800s, which enabled them to dominate nonEuropeans, so east Asians had the technology of the west as a pre existing goal to deliberately shoot for to match the west. Kinda like the Soviet five year plans. Hense the tendency for governments to set long, and even multigenerational goals.

But if thats your theory than go ahead and start your own thread about it.



Lecia_Wynter
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 16 Dec 2022
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 411

18 Feb 2023, 9:37 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
We are not talking about race per se.

The obvious reason that 'no one accepts it' is that there is little evidence for the KIND of 'racial differences' you're talking about. Culture and history are more than enough to explain it.

You made a claim that it was a cultural and not racial thing, to which I simply disagree. Your opinion is that race and culture exists in a vacuum, that genetics does not effect culture and I do not see it that way.

Quote:
The long term thinking may not even go that deep even culturally for the simple reason that
Europe and America accidentally stumbled into the Industrial Revolution of the 1800s, which enabled them to dominate nonEuropeans, so east Asians had the technology of the west as a pre existing goal to deliberately shoot for to match the west. Kinda like the Soviet five year plans. Hense the tendency for governments to set long, and even multigenerational goals.
In what way were inventions deliberately made by hardworking engineers and policies that paved the Industrial Revolution an accident? That's like saying the Roman Empire was just an accident, lol.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 70
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

18 Feb 2023, 9:45 pm

Lecia_Wynter wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
We are not talking about race per se.

The obvious reason that 'no one accepts it' is that there is little evidence for the KIND of 'racial differences' you're talking about. Culture and history are more than enough to explain it.

You made a claim that it was a cultural and not racial thing, to which I simply disagree. Your opinion is that race and culture exists in a vacuum, that genetics does not effect culture and I do not see it that way.

Quote:
The long term thinking may not even go that deep even culturally for the simple reason that
Europe and America accidentally stumbled into the Industrial Revolution of the 1800s, which enabled them to dominate nonEuropeans, so east Asians had the technology of the west as a pre existing goal to deliberately shoot for to match the west. Kinda like the Soviet five year plans. Hense the tendency for governments to set long, and even multigenerational goals.
In what way were inventions deliberately made by hardworking engineers and policies that paved the Industrial Revolution an accident? That's like saying the Roman Empire was just an accident, lol.

China was ahead of the west in technology for all five thousand years of history until about four centuries ago...when the west began plundering the world of both wealth and ideas and inched ahead by about 1800.

By admitting that 'culture' and 'race dont exist in a vaccuum' you're admitting that the two things cant be teased apart and tested for scientifically. So the logical option is to assume culture does not come from race until prove otherwise. If you're so upset about it then start your own thread about it.



Last edited by naturalplastic on 18 Feb 2023, 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

18 Feb 2023, 9:46 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

Whether the China is doing it (it would be totally in character if they did) and whether it would come close to succeeding is an open question.


I didn't expect you to be walking on eggshells over what is blatantly obvious
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_nationalism

I also recommend you read Sun Yat Sen's writing, the father of modern China. He greatly influenced Mao and the CCP leadership.



Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

18 Feb 2023, 10:00 pm

Minder wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I hate to say it, there's a reason no one makes 100 year plans - those plans will be obsolete on far shorter time horizons. It's hard to even make a five year plan these days with how rapidly economic and security vulnerabilities are changing.

What they have, OTOH, is the biggest demographic house of cards in the world. If they can't deal with their population going to 650 million by the end of the century there isn't a lot that's going to matter.


Exactly. Any 100 year plan will be obsolete within a decade or two.


Have you considered the term "A 100 year plan" as a metaphor?
Could it mean long thinking?



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

18 Feb 2023, 10:01 pm

Pepe wrote:
Could it mean long thinking?


Apparently it's racist to say Chinese leadership are think or plan for the long term :roll:



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 70
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

18 Feb 2023, 10:14 pm

cyberdad wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:

Whether the China is doing it (it would be totally in character if they did) and whether it would come close to succeeding is an open question.


I didn't expect you to be walking on eggshells over what is blatantly obvious
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_nationalism

I also recommend you read Sun Yat Sen's writing, the father of modern China. He greatly influenced Mao and the CCP leadership.


The point of the Wiki article is ...essentially China is like everyplace else including the USA. They have patriotism (fervent loyalty to the nation state and its values), and they have nationalism (fervent loyalty to the dominant race/tribe/ethnic group of the nation). Basically "racism lite". We Americans have patriots who applaud hard working immigrants taking their oath to become newly forged American citizens. And we have White supremist who join "Christian Nationalist" terror groups who want to cleanse the nation of brown folks and Jews etc.

Like the US China liked to conquer its neighbors in other centuries. But there isnt much about "world domination". Just stuff about China going through cycles of invading its regional neighbors. Which is not to say that the CCR might not be more global in its ambitions now. In the last couple of a centuries it has been Russia, Britain, France, the US, and Japan, that have been doing all of the plundering and colonizing of Asia. Not China. In fact China itself came close to being dismembered between Russia, Britain, and France (southern China would have been an extension of French Indo China, Tibet and Yangtze Valley an extension of British India, and norther China part of the Russian Far East).



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 70
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

18 Feb 2023, 10:23 pm

Actually the word "hundred" is often used in China as a metaphor for 'many'. Edifices have names like 'the house of a hundred flowering roses".

Since ancient times the Chinese often even refer to themselves as "the hundred families" since they view themselves as a collection of clans (or extended families). But if you do the math, and guesstimate that the average Chinese clan has five hundred people, you realize that...even before the Han Dynasty China HAD to have had more than just fifty thousand people. So that aint literal.

So it could mean just 'long term thinking beyond an American election cycle, but not literally a 100 years'.

But ...it could mean literally by the next centurey.



Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

18 Feb 2023, 10:28 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Japan was also notorious for thinking ...in the long term of decades. In contrast to the US mentality of only thinking as far ahead as the next election. It is an Asian thing, and it cultural, not racial.

Whether the China is doing it (it would be totally in character if they did) and whether it would come close to succeeding is an open question.


This. 8)



Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

18 Feb 2023, 10:32 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Actually the word "hundred" is often used in China as a metaphor for 'many'. Edifices have names like 'the house of a hundred flowering roses".

Since ancient times the Chinese often even refer to themselves as "the hundred families" since they view themselves as a collection of clans (or extended families). But if you do the math, and guesstimate that the average Chinese clan has five hundred people, you realize that...even before the Han Dynasty China HAD to have had more than just fifty thousand people. So that aint literal.

So it could mean just 'long term thinking beyond an American election cycle, but not literally a 100 years'.

But ...it could mean literally by the next centurey.


This. 8)



Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

18 Feb 2023, 11:28 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:

Whether the China is doing it (it would be totally in character if they did) and whether it would come close to succeeding is an open question.


I didn't expect you to be walking on eggshells over what is blatantly obvious
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_nationalism

I also recommend you read Sun Yat Sen's writing, the father of modern China. He greatly influenced Mao and the CCP leadership.


The point of the Wiki article is ...essentially China is like everyplace else including the USA. They have patriotism (fervent loyalty to the nation state and its values), and they have nationalism (fervent loyalty to the dominant race/tribe/ethnic group of the nation). Basically "racism lite". We Americans have patriots who applaud hard working immigrants taking their oath to become newly forged American citizens. And we have White supremist who join "Christian Nationalist" terror groups who want to cleanse the nation of brown folks and Jews etc.

Like the US China liked to conquer its neighbors in other centuries. But there isnt much about "world domination". Just stuff about China going through cycles of invading its regional neighbors. Which is not to say that the CCR might not be more global in its ambitions now. In the last couple of a centuries it has been Russia, Britain, France, the US, and Japan, that have been doing all of the plundering and colonizing of Asia. Not China. In fact China itself came close to being dismembered between Russia, Britain, and France (southern China would have been an extension of French Indo China, Tibet and Yangtze Valley an extension of British India, and norther China part of the Russian Far East).


Yes, we are all humans...and skunks...