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cyberdad
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25 Nov 2023, 1:42 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Well not to be insensitive, like I think it is sh***y for people to pull down the posters. But also what good does putting those posters up in the U.S do?


A lot of the hostages have family in America, indeed many of the hostages are American citizens.



cyberdad
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25 Nov 2023, 1:43 am

TwilightPrincess wrote:
Notice that I used the word "some." It's impossible to know how "the majority" feel on this topic and how "tribal" and "obsessed with borders" they are in comparison to other places.


Trump won the 2016 election solely on the back of strengthening borders



cyberdad
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25 Nov 2023, 1:46 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Bush Jr. when he launched the Iraq war was called a war criminal. So was Chaney and Rumsfeld.

It would be just as evil if people started ripping down posters of innocent Palestinians who have been killed in this war as the act of ripping down hostage posters is.


The difference is the International tribunal in the Hague doesn't consider them criminals.



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25 Nov 2023, 6:11 am

cyberdad wrote:
Recidivist wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Recidivist wrote:
WTF are you on about, are you seriously gatekeeping who can and cannot be outraged and blaming Americans for their government's war crimes. You are a complete [insert the most offensive thing you can think of here]


All I am saying people need to hold their governments responsible before casting judgement on foreign governments. This is an issue for the US where 75 million voted for deranged narcissistic maniac knowing what they were doing but then make fun of North Korean and Russia for having dictators.


Who are these people you refer too? Are they members here?


No I am speaking generally that US citizens should examine their own countries crimes before casting judgement on Israel following their own experience of a "9-11" which was "10-7". It just comes across as hypocritical.


OK, that makes sense in that context but you used it as part of validating torture in this very thread aimed at IL when she said no one should be torturted and at TP when she pointed out your flawed reasoning . It seems to me that you find it very difficult to aknowledge Israels treatment of Palestinians as wrong and perform mental gymanastics to validate it, which is entirely your perogative but don't expect members not to give you pushback on those kind of views.


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25 Nov 2023, 12:27 pm

^ *chucks a 'C' up there*


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25 Nov 2023, 12:29 pm

Recidivist wrote:
OK, that makes sense in that context but you used it as part of validating torture in this very thread aimed at IL when she said no one should be torturted and at TP when she pointed out your flawed reasoning . It seems to me that you find it very difficult to aknowledge Israels treatment of Palestinians as wrong and perform mental gymanastics to validate it, which is entirely your perogative but don't expect members not to give you pushback on those kind of views.


Well said.


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25 Nov 2023, 12:32 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Maybe cyberdad has never heard of propaganda television.


Hasbara isn't propaganda, it's just Israel's narrative that may or may not have any connection to reality, but if you question it you're with the terrorists.


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28 Nov 2023, 9:01 pm

Another, very different perspective on the hostage posters, from a Zionist:

Israeli hostages' families need to be silenced, jailed, US spy for Israel said by Rebecca Rommen, Business Insider, November 24, 2023:

Quote:
- Jonathan Pollard is a former US Navy intelligence analyst who was imprisoned for spying for Israel.
- Pollard said that the families of Israeli hostages should have been jailed to shut them up.
- "I was dead set against these 'kidnapped' posters because each one of them was a poison dart," he said.

Jonathan Pollard, a former US intelligence analyst imprisoned for spying for Israel, has called for hostages' families to be silenced and arrested.

Pollard told Israeli media that the families of Israeli hostages should have been jailed to shut them up. He also said posters of the captives should never have been hung up.

"When Israel declared war, the first thing that the government should have done was declare a state of national emergency and told all the hostages: 'You will keep your mouth shut or we will shut them for you,'" Pollard said.

[...]

He said the Israeli government should have prevented the hostages' families from "interfering" with their management of this war.

He implied that the hostages' families were being "used by the international community" or "by our own leftists" as a weapon against the Israeli government.

"If that means imprisoning to silence certain members of the hostage families, then so be it — we're in a state of war."


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cyberdad
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28 Nov 2023, 9:13 pm

Recidivist wrote:
It seems to me that you find it very difficult to aknowledge Israels treatment of Palestinians as wrong and perform mental gymanastics to validate it, which is entirely your perogative but don't expect members not to give you pushback on those kind of views.


No I am actually against the principle of using torture on prisoners. But at what actions does a country who have been attacked by what everyone agrees is terrorism take?

Hypothetically those criticising Israel can't seriously assume following 10-7 that the IDF not respond to
a. mass slaughter in their own settlements
b. mass hostage taking and rape/abuse of women/children
c, firing of rockets into Israel immediately following the 10-7 attack

I agree that retribution was part of the goal in the IDF response for a. and b. And that was not necessary but (seriously) it was inevitable. A more sensible approach would be a prisoner swap for b. to avoid casualties.

But would HAMAS have stopped firing rockets at c. if Israel tried to negotiate? I posed the question if Mexico demanding Texas and California be given back and started dropping bombs on LA and Houston and took hostages whom they raped live on TV. Would you think the US would try and peacefully negotiate? no, the US would bomb the s**t out of Mexico back to the stone age.