Is Wicca/Neopaganism ruined?

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More "abrasive and elitist/exclusive/snobby" -- or otherwise obnoxious -- than most teenagers in general?

In my experience, many teenagers in general tend to be obnoxious in one way or another.

If you experience goth/emo kids as being more "abrasive and elitist/exclusive/snobby" than teenagers in general, I wonder if this might be -- in at least some cases, at least in part -- because they first detect hostile or contemptuous vibes coming from you. So perhaps a self-fulfilling prophecy, at least to some extent?

Also, oddball subcultures of all kinds are likely to attract more than their share of autistic and other neurodivergent people. And this might be another reason why these subcultures might have more than their share of people who come across as "abrasive and elitist/exclusive/snobby" -- or, at least, not the friendliest or most outgoing. So I wonder if, in at least a few cases, you might be mistaking autistic traits for snobbishness.

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 24 Jun 2025, 12:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Every religion is commercialized all to hell. American Evangelicals have their big corporate megachurches, Mecca has a booming hotel industry, I've seen Buddhist monks with cell-phones and driving fancy cars. Nothing holy or sacred can coexist with capitalism

Hmmm no, I was a loner in highschool and the goth/emo groups were equally condescending to me as my other arch enemies. the only difference between them and my occasional bullies is they played dress up.

I can't speak for all goths and emos or wiccans/pagans but the people I came across who followed these groups were popular, good looking, fashionable outgoing neurotypicals who enjoyed the attention. Sure a few individuals were not that bad and you could have a conversation but like extreme vegans (another group I know well) they had lifestyles that meant they excluded mere mortals from their social circles, something they wore like a badge of honour.

One example was in my early days working in a lab. One of the dudes who worked in the chemical store room was a paganist. He was covered from head to toe in pagan tattoos and piercings. In my occasional work interactions with him I asked him the religious reason he got all the tattoos and what the tattoos meant? He was initially shocked I asked (I was always curious like Dora the explorer) but laughed and said "it's just body art", it has no meaning. I asked him again..and he came up with "i like it". But aren't you a neo-pagan? and he said "yeah and the body art is just something that's me. And there you have it...elaborate cosplay.

Perhaps individual oddballs yes. But certainly not groups. Groupthink is neuroetypical > neurodivergents. I think you would know that...

Ain't that the truth...even the Jedi couldn't stave off corruption.

And those Catholic, Protestant, and puritan cults are themselves nothing like what Jesus was up to as presented in the bible, assuming that book is in any way an accurate portrayal of the man and his mission. Yet here we are. They have one and a half billion adherents. Not to mention Tibetan Buddhism that looks nothing like what that dude from 500 bce was up to.

The early Victorian revival was nothing more than a gasp of fresh air as people were finally free from the church's stranglehold on religion and spirituality. It's the time that gave us various Mutual Aid groups like the Freemasons, Buffalos, and 'Druids'. Pretty sure those Druids were Christians.

But it got the ball rolling on exploring. Then the West got occultists, Theosophists, Buddhists, Hindus and Hari Krshnas, Wiccans, and on and on. They were inspired by the past, but they weren't recreating. They were just creating.

"Pagan"? Depends. Define the word. Fit the definition, then ... Agreed though that maybe the term 'neo-pagan' might be more accurate. But then again, how long does it need to last to stop being neo?

Anyhoo. Since the 1970s, there has been an effort to formulate various neo-paganisms along more scholarly lines. They call themselves Reconstructionists. A phase I went through. I dropped it about a decade ago after coming to similar conclusions. We're not part of ancient tribes doing it ancient ways. So I asked myself, what do you call a modern polytheist in a modern cultural setting, speaking a modern language, seeking to connect with those old Gods?

I came up with the term 'Reconnectionist'. All the reading of the Reconstructionists, but none of the anachronisms

A good summary of the history...reconstruction is what these are...

Most people naturally gravitate towards other people who share their interests and values. In and of itself, this isn't necessarily snobbery, but just birds of a feather flocking together. Do you resent them for the mere fact that they aren't equally interested in talking to everybody? Or are they actually nasty and insulting about it?


It does not follow that his entire religious practice is just "elaborate cosplay." By denying the religious significance of his body art, it seems to me that he was just saying he did not regard body art as a religious practice. But he would likely have given you a very different answer had you asked him about something he DID regard as a religious practice.

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 24 Jun 2025, 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Some of us do seek out groups of oddballs who share our interests. Indeed, for autistic people as well as for NT's, that's one of the most likely ways to find friends, although it may require a lot of patience.

I'm sorry to hear that was your experience.

However, it does appear that autistic people who happen to share the "goth" esthetic can find acceptance in the goth subculture more easily than more culturally mainstream autistic people can find acceptance in mainstream society. There is plenty of documentation of this, e.g. here and here.

And similarly for many (though not all) other oddball subcultures.

No I have nothing against these groups. I am just saying they are no more religions than any club or society.

Big difference. For a Māori or pacific islander tattoos do have religious or spiritual meaning. For the pagan dude his tattoos were body art. Again his interpretation of paganism is like a social club. Perhaps individual wiccans or pagans diligently carry out rituals/incantations at home and don't seek validation. But I doubt what they follow isn't more complex than a synthesis of stuff they read about like theosophists. It's not like the last pagan viking passed his thor's hammer to a novice and paganism carried on in an unbroken chain. People practicing it today put their beliefs together from books like cooking recipes.

^^^ Perfectly fine.

Yeah the way this subculture manifested back in the late 70s early 80s in Australia, it wasn't inclusive. Perhaps such groups manifested differently in the US.

But the above was written in reply to this:


... which was about the goth and emo scenes, not just the Pagan scene. The goth and emo scenes are, indeed, not religions, and indeed the goth scene does involve cosplay. But this has no bearing on the question of how "religious" Pagans are.

And, in the above-quoted previous post, you were complaining specifically about your unpleasant personal encounters with goths and emos as well as with Pagans. I asked for a clarification as to how and why these encounters were so unpleasant for you.

Some religious groups are indeed, by their very nature, thoroughly obnoxious (e.g. the Westboro Baptist Church, to name an obvious example). Have any Pagans done or said anything actively nasty to you? Or, regarding their personal behavior toward you, are you just complaining about the fact that they were more interested in talking to their fellow Pagans than in talking to you?

This is a separate question from how "religious" they are.

I am also wondering if any goths or emos have done or said anything actively nasty to you.

I'll reply to other posts of yours in this thread later. I'll respond to your objections to neo-Paganism as a religious movement then.