Interesting Discussion of the Situation in Iran

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Master_Pedant
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18 Jun 2009, 2:15 pm

Listening to this interview, I get the impression that the situation in Iran is dire. This discussion indicates Iran is rapidly moving towards a government by Military Junta. The hopes and aspirations of the Greens (Mousavi supporters/reformists) are in a firm position to be crushed under the thuggery of million-strong militamen and the Revolutionary Guard.

The popular protests (100 000s strong) don't look like a serious challenge to a million strong militia, not to mentioned the combined effect of the pro-Ahmadinejad Revolutionary Guard and police. Unarmed civillians, as noble as the imagery may appear, seldom stand strong against armed thugs backed by the state.

Foreign anatagonism looks as if it will merely radicalize the Ahmadinejadists and miliary-miliia factions. Foreign military intervention I can see leading to pure chaos.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCF3d-8AAtU&feature=channel_page[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnce_-DEGZo&feature=channel_page[/youtube]



Orwell
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18 Jun 2009, 2:38 pm

Popular protests can stop military coups- there was an attempted military coup in 1991 in the Soviet Union, complete with jamming communications and media, but protesters stood outside the Parliament building and defended their elected representatives against usurpers. After a brief standoff, most of the military defected, unwilling to fire on their own people, and the coup was defeated.

A similar situation is possible in Iran. Just a reminder that the victor is not always the one with the most guns. Still, I think the situation in Iran is more likely to play out like the situation in Zimbabwe- perhaps Mousavi will be given some government post as a consolation prize, but Ahmadinejad will retain real power.


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Master_Pedant
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18 Jun 2009, 3:02 pm

Orwell wrote:
Popular protests can stop military coups- there was an attempted military coup in 1991 in the Soviet Union, complete with jamming communications and media, but protesters stood outside the Parliament building and defended their elected representatives against usurpers. After a brief standoff, most of the military defected, unwilling to fire on their own people, and the coup was defeated.

A similar situation is possible in Iran. Just a reminder that the victor is not always the one with the most guns. Still, I think the situation in Iran is more likely to play out like the situation in Zimbabwe- perhaps Mousavi will be given some government post as a consolation prize, but Ahmadinejad will retain real power.


That may be the case if the Basji militia men had a particular affinity to the largely urban dwellers who support Mousavi or if there was fractionating in the armed forces. But I don't quite see this as the case. Time will test my assumptions.



zer0netgain
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19 Jun 2009, 7:58 am

Orwell wrote:
Popular protests can stop military coups- there was an attempted military coup in 1991 in the Soviet Union, complete with jamming communications and media, but protesters stood outside the Parliament building and defended their elected representatives against usurpers. After a brief standoff, most of the military defected, unwilling to fire on their own people, and the coup was defeated.


And who runs the nation now? Former KGB and Russian mafia who now populate the government. I question if they are really better off today?



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19 Jun 2009, 9:31 am

zer0netgain wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Popular protests can stop military coups- there was an attempted military coup in 1991 in the Soviet Union, complete with jamming communications and media, but protesters stood outside the Parliament building and defended their elected representatives against usurpers. After a brief standoff, most of the military defected, unwilling to fire on their own people, and the coup was defeated.


And who runs the nation now? Former KGB and Russian mafia who now populate the government. I question if they are really better off today?

Well, other issues came up. The coup was attempting to overthrow Gorbachev and end his liberal reforms, but it failed. A couple months later Yeltsin effectively overthrew Gorbachev anyways and summarily dissolved the Soviet Union. And a lot of historians blame Gorbachev's reforms for leading to the USSR's collapse.


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Master_Pedant
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19 Jun 2009, 9:17 pm

Orwell wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Popular protests can stop military coups- there was an attempted military coup in 1991 in the Soviet Union, complete with jamming communications and media, but protesters stood outside the Parliament building and defended their elected representatives against usurpers. After a brief standoff, most of the military defected, unwilling to fire on their own people, and the coup was defeated.


And who runs the nation now? Former KGB and Russian mafia who now populate the government. I question if they are really better off today?

Well, other issues came up. The coup was attempting to overthrow Gorbachev and end his liberal reforms, but it failed. A couple months later Yeltsin effectively overthrew Gorbachev anyways and summarily dissolved the Soviet Union. And a lot of historians blame Gorbachev's reforms for leading to the USSR's collapse.


And, perhaps, making to many concessions to an unreasonable and uncompromising actor played a role as well.



xenon13
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19 Jun 2009, 10:56 pm

Soviet Vice-President Gennady Yanayev, Defence Minister Dmitri Yazov, Interior Minister Boris Pugo, KGB head Vladimir Kryuchkov, Prime Minister Valentin Pavlov, and the rest of the State of Emergency Committee deposed Gorbachev in order to prevent the signing of the new Union Treaty that would have renamed the country the Union of Sovereign States... and heavily decentralised the country... this followed the March 17 1991 referendum where Soviet citizens voted to preserve the USSR. Since then Yeltsin went out of his way to usurp the powers of the Soviet state and Gorbachev was giving in to these people.

At any rate, there was a perception by many that the State of Emergency Committee represented a rotten order - even though many wanted the security and supported it quietly. In the case of Iran, Musavi represents a faction in Iran that is considered to be corrupt and run by ostentatiously wealthy people...

In the end, it was the elite that succumbed for the desire to be part of the Western elites and helped tilt things to Yeltsin... one has to wonder if the part of the Iranian elite of similar opinion is able to defeat the Revolutionary Guards and the like.



Khan_Sama
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21 Jun 2009, 9:29 am

One tyrant versus another. Same old story. Same old naive masses.



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22 Jun 2009, 4:07 am

Why should we care what Iran does?

Do we care about Mongolia or Peru or New Zealand or South Africa or Bolivia or Nigeria?

So why is it such a big deal what Iran does or doesn't do?



monty
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22 Jun 2009, 9:46 am

Wombat wrote:
Why should we care what Iran does?

Do we care about Mongolia or Peru or New Zealand or South Africa or Bolivia or Nigeria?

So why is it such a big deal what Iran does or doesn't do?


What do you mean by 'we', Wombat? If you think the world outside of your neighborhood is uninteresting or irrelevant to your life, I will not try to persuade you otherwise (though I certainly don't think such attitude is generally a good thing).

BTW, the last time Iran had a revolution, it created gasoline shortages and plunged the rest of the world into a recession.



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22 Jun 2009, 9:51 am

Wombat wrote:
Why should we care what Iran does?

Do we care about Mongolia or Peru or New Zealand or South Africa or Bolivia or Nigeria?

So why is it such a big deal what Iran does or doesn't do?


The Iranians have or will shortly have nukes. That is why? That is the equivalent of a maniac standing in a pool of gasoline flicking his Bik.

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22 Jun 2009, 12:48 pm

Too late - Israel has nuclear weapons. "The Arabs have the oil but we have the matches", as they say... now these are maniacs of the first order.

The Islamic Republic of Iran is a model of sanity when compared to the maniacs who, for instance, threatened to bomb Saudi oil fields to retaliate against a Saudi peace initiative in 1981.



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22 Jun 2009, 1:54 pm

"don't want no Ayatollah" topic

Ah, Jimmy Buffet. :(

more than two dozen have died in the protests that followed the "election." This is sham-ocracy; the pretense of choice of government. that "almond-jihad" fellow must have known all along. :evil:


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22 Jun 2009, 2:04 pm

Warning , disturbing image and video of a dead person:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_worl ... _iran.html



codarac
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22 Jun 2009, 6:01 pm

Wombat wrote:
Why should we care what Iran does?

Do we care about Mongolia or Peru or New Zealand or South Africa or Bolivia or Nigeria?

So why is it such a big deal what Iran does or doesn't do?


Mongolia? No.
New Zealand? No.
Bolivia? No.
Nigeria? No.
South Africa? Well, we were supposed to care back in the days of apartheid, but now South Africa is a happy, vibrant, peaceful, prosperous rainbow nation we can concentrate on other business.



ruveyn
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22 Jun 2009, 7:42 pm

xenon13 wrote:
Too late - Israel has nuclear weapons. "The Arabs have the oil but we have the matches", as they say... now these are maniacs of the first order.


Have the Israelis nuked anyone lately? They haven't tested for many years.

ruveyn