Christianity's relationship with paganism

Post Reply New Topic

I wrote this in another thread but I thought it was worth discussing in a new thread...

For those believing the trinity doctrine is complete rubbish, or doesn't make any sense, you should know that your instincts are correct. It isn't found in the Bible anywhere. So if it isn't found in the Bible then how can it be taught in churches world wide? Well in order to know the truth we need to go back thousands of years to around 325 C.E. (325 years after Christ's death). A time when Rome was still a failing world power.

At the time there was growing opposition to the developing idea that Jesus was God. Many bishops rejected the idea on Biblical grounds. Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea; also known as the Council of Nicaea. A small fraction of around 300 actually attended.

Constantine wasn't concerned with biblical truths. He wasn't even a Christian. He only converted to Christianity later in life and wasn't baptized until his dying days. For most of his life Constantine worshiped the Unconquered Sun; in other words he was a devout Pagan. He never had any grasp on biblical principles, but he understood religious division was a huge threat to his empire. By introducing the idea of the trinity (or triune Godhead; a pagan motif he was familiar with) into Christianity he felt this could help solidify his domain. At the time not one of the bishops promoted a trinity.

Years later Emperor Theodosius established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm. He convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to clarify the formula. That council agreed to place the Holy Spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom's Trinity started to come into focus. Many opposed this teaching and were violently persecuted. It took centuries for the trinity to be formulated into a doctrinal creed.

By inserting this pagan belief into the core teachings of Christianity, pagan emperors of Rome were able to not only keep their Christian subjects in line but they also brought many pagans into the fold. In short the trinity doctrine that is taught today is the sole creation of pagan Rome. Quite frankly it is bastardized hybrid of pagan and Christian beliefs. Worst yet, in order to hide this lie they translated the bible into the forgotten language of Latin, a language only known by religious members of the clergy who could be controlled by the Roman empire. Anyone who tried to uncover the truth by reading the bible was persecuted and summarily executed.

This is historical fact.

Worth noting:

Many centuries before the time of Christ, there were triads, or trinities, of gods in ancient Babylonia and Assyria. The French "Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology" notes one such triad in that Mesopotamian area: "The universe was divided into three regions each of which became the domain of a god. Anu's share was the sky. The earth was given to Enlil. Ea became the ruler of the waters. Together they constituted the triad of the Great Gods."

THROUGHOUT the ancient world, as far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common. That influence was also prevalent in Egypt, Greece, and Rome in the centuries before, during, and after Christ. And after the death of the apostles, such pagan beliefs began to invade Christianity.


India. Triune Hindu godhead, c. 7th century C.E.


France. Trinity, c. 14th century C.E. (1)


Italy. Trinity, c. 15th century C.E. (2)


Germany. Trinity, 20th century C.E.

In the Leydon hymns, Amun, Ptah, and Re are regarded as a trinity who are distinct gods but with unity in plurality. "The three gods are one yet the Egyptian elsewhere insists on the separate identity of each of the three".[8] This unity in plurality is expressed in one text: "All gods are three: Amun, Re and Ptah, whom none equals. He who hides his name as Amun, he appears to the face as Re, his body is Ptah".
Reference

Historian Will Durant observed: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity." And in the book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology."

Like I said the bible contains absolutely NO mention of a trinity or triune Godhead. If you wish to seek the truth you must do your own research and study of the Bible. It would also be good to pray to God for guidance when seeking knowledge of the truth.

I know Constantine was never a true Christian believer. He was more interested in harnessing the loyalty of the masses of Christians in the Roman empire, who despite being an illegal religion represented maybe half of the empire's population by Constantine's time. And it is undeniable that he had gathered Christian bishops in order to work out a single theological formula for his new state religion, as there had been no theological unity among Roman era Christians. But where I part with you is on how much input Constantine was actually responsible for. As you yourself had pointed out, Constantine had displayed little real interest in the Christian belief system. I'm more of the opinion that the bishops pretty much worked out the theology, including the Trinitarian doctrine. I think the real question should be, how much were the Bishops influenced by the paganism around them. And just because trinities existed in Pre-Christian religions doesn't mean it couldn't have existed among Christians prior to Constantine.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I actually wrote that above in my opening post:

"Years later Emperor Theodosius established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm. He convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to clarify the formula. That council agreed to place the Holy Spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom's Trinity started to come into focus."

Emperor Theodosius decided to adopt the Council of Nicaea's idea of the trinity introduced by Constantine. Since Theodosius lacked any biblical knowledge he left the particulars to the Council of Constantinople to create the trinity. Who better to create this false doctrine that those familiar with the bible, right? They, the council, were the ones who placed the Holy Spirit on the same level with God and Christ, and when Theodosius recognized the pagan motif of a triadic god he adopted it as the state religion. For all intents and purposes he felt he was still practicing paganism, only it was another form of paganism.



No one knows, because such information isn't recorded. But what is known is sort of answered in my opening post. Here's a quick snapshot of key points: "At the time there was growing opposition to the developing idea that Jesus was God. Many bishops rejected the idea on Biblical grounds." ... "At the time not one of the bishops promoted a trinity." ... "Many opposed this teaching and were violently persecuted. It took centuries for the trinity to be formulated into a doctrinal creed."

It is safe to assume that for a large period of time before the trinity doctrine many bishops taught God was the Father, Jesus the Christ was his son. I assume they taught the Holy Spirit was God's active force (although I'm not entirely sure on that).



Trinity's entrance into Christianity began in 325 C.E. with Constantine and did not exist in Christianity prior to that. The apostles kept Christianity together; unified for a single purpose and faith, and cleansed of false beliefs. Unfortunately after the apostles death an apostasy began to seep into the faith. Many Christian elders began to adopt the beliefs of secular scholars. For example they began to inject Plato's teaching that humans had immortal souls ignoring the fact that the bible says a soul is "a living soul" (Genesis 2:7) and that this living soul can die. (Ezekiel 18:4; 1 Kings 19:4; Jonah 4:8). Plato's idea was later rejected by Sir Isaac Newton and John Milton. Regardless, it was pagan Rome that was the birthplace of many false doctrines (e.g. the Trinity, Christmas, and so forth). It just boggles my mind that millions of people have no idea that the Christianity they're taught in churches today is a product of corrupt clergy under direct control of pagan Roman emperors some 1,700 years ago. And for what? So these emperors could maintain control over their subjects.

Is everyone's going to let this topic die? Did I provide too much information? Is the topic not interesting? I think it's eye-opening.

You should look at theForerunner777 on youtube. He pretty much did the same topic as you did. Even the Bible itself backed him up.

Just because trinitarian forms exist elsewhere in mythology, it doesn't logically follow that the doctrine of the trinity is false in Christianity. Remember, Christians believe that God is from everlasting to everlasting. If so, He's always been a trinity... and other spiritual beings (angels and demons) know that. In that case should we be surprised that some form of trinitarianism turns up in other faiths? Why not? From a Christian point of view, they could be accepted as shadows of the real thing.

There are indications of the trinity in the Bible. For example, "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth..." God in this case is described as "Elohim", which is plural, but the verb to create is singular. So we have "singular plurality" very early on.

There are many more examples, but I don't want to get into a "told you so," "you're wrong, so you must be stupid," or "you're not a real Christian" if people disagree with me. It is up to every individual to find out as much as they can about God, and I wish the best to everyone who partakes in this thread. I simply wanted to point out that the evidence is more complex than at first appears.

The typical Christian with a background such as my own has been warned to not even listen to "other doctrines" or whatever, and that has effectively cut them out of even simply considering actual historical facts related to certain things so many of us had been taught even though you have presented no "other doctrine" at all!

I first began hearing the kinds of things you are reporting a little over ten years ago, and getting to here has not been easy even though I was already pretty much "done" with Christianity's overall emptiness by that time. This thread might not ever have a great number of posts, but keep an eye on the "read" count and bring it back around every once in a while!

I don't think that pagan theology actually has any trinities. Pagan theology has triads, which is to say three separate gods; but pagan theology does not have any trinities, which is to say one God in three persons.

And although the word "trinity" is not found in the Bible, that doesn't necessarily mean that the Bible doesn't teach the concept of the "Trinity." The word "monotheism," for example, is not found in the Bible, and yet the Bible teaches the concept of "monotheism."

As I recall, Jesus himself claimed He and the Father were the same. As well, before his ascension, Jesus told his followers to baptize all mankind in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, placing all three on equal footing.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Since Jesus preached to Jews he probably said no such thing. Such drivel would have been totally alien to a Jewish audience.

ruveyn

And I quote:



You believe this doctrine because it was falsely made by corrupt men and then taught to the masses for the past 1,700 years. This falsehood has blinded your eyes. I feel sorry you're not even willing to acknowledge the facts I've provided.

It's not that I don't acknowledge what you've written, I just don't necessarily agree with it.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Or, Paul was right - Christianity had become a new and separate religion from Judaism.

Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Nope. Here are some excerpts of his saying exactly the opposite:

John 14:24: “... the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”
John 14:26: “... the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name ...”
John 14:28: “... I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.”
John 14:31: “... as the Father commanded Me, so I am doing.”


"Equal footing" is not synonymous with "one is three". “The Three Stooges” or “The Three Musketeers” or “a doctor, a nurse and a receptionist” are examples of "equal footing" or “three as one” just as “Father, Son and Spirit” are “three as one”. But again: “three as one” does *not* mean “one is three”.


Paul never said that. But yes, no "trinity religion" is synonymous with Scriptural "Judaism".

\

Paul is never right.

What's your beef with Paul?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer