Question for libertarians

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Especially to American libertarians.

Us Euros have a hard time understanding the anti-state mentality you have over there.

Why are taxes so bad as long as they guarantee you access to a service that you will eventually need anyway at point of demand?

I see the welfare system less as a burden and more as an investment in that regardless of how bad things get i know there is something of a safety net if things really screw up for me. Taxes are just your stake in that system.

In the case of healthcare, you pay premiums to a insurance company anyway, what does it matter if you pay the state for the same service?

What happens when you don't pay taxes?

And what if the person did not want the "service" from the government? He has to pay anyway. Taxation is theft. It is the involuntary transfer of money or assets from one person to another. At the very least that is larceny. And if the tax men seize one's goods it is armed robbery.

ruveyn

That doesn't answer the questions. Can you please address them, one-by-one?

Strong young men armed to the teeth take your property and haul your sorry butt to jail.

Next question?

ruveyn

The issue for me as a libertarian is not about whether or not government can provide a service that benefits me. The issue is that I don't have a choice in the matter. Participation in private industry social welfare is discretionary. With government, I participate under threat of violence.

I don't oppose social welfare. I oppose mandatory participation in social welfare. I feel that I should be able to choose which social welfare programs I participate in.

Choice? Choice? Nonsense. The People have decreed and you must obey! or else

ruveyn

Lets be clear, I'm referring more to essential services that you can't make do without. Going to hospital or dying in the street from preventable causes isn't a meaningful choice as any rational person would understand it.

So.

Either way, you end up having to pay.

Either way, if you refuse to pay or withhold payment as some sort of protest, either sector can send heavies around to get their pound of flesh.

In the British isles, they are called bailiffs. In the United States, I believe you call them repo-men.

The question is: can I make decisions for myself, as a rational adult? Or will they be made for me by a complete stranger, as if he were my parent and I were a child?

Take health care. Yes, every sane adult will buy insurance for himself if he is financially able. But in a free market, I personally would not choose to purchase coverage for alcohol detox or drug rehab, because after 30 years of light drinking and no other drug use, I believe it extremely unlikely that I will ever need such things.

However, now a bureaucrat is going to decree that I must buy coverage for alcohol detox and drug rehab -- ostensibly because he knows better than I what I should do. That's offensive enough, but of course the real reason is that they need to extract more money from me in order to cover people who will contribute little or nothing. That's not insurance, it's thinly-veiled redistribution.

Now, in a free society, I might choose to donate that same amount to a charity supporting health care for the indigent -- contrary to popular opinion, neither libertarians nor Objectivists are opposed to voluntary charity. I might prefer to give to disabled veterans or some other cause with personal meaning for me. I might decide to keep my money this year, and replace our 35-year-old car. Instead, a bureaucrat will decide for me what causes I will support and by how much (and which businesses, all contributors to his campaign, I will subsidize, and by how much) -- and his edicts are enforced at gunpoint. By what right?

(Not a libertarian, but sometimes mistaken for one)

Look, I'm really mad about there being roads I don't drive on. Someone has informed me that my sweet baby angel tax dollars have paid to maintain THOUSANDS OF MILES of road that I'm never going to drive on, and I couldn't care less about! Stop making me pay for these parasites to drive around on MY road!

If you think libertarianism is all about not paying taxes, they you're an idiot, or grossly misinformed. Pick one.

its the main thrust of their grievances though, isn't it?

its incredible how libertarian style thinkers get easilly wound up at the 'indignant' of their own countrypeople having access to alcholol and drug detox programs but when it comes to billions spent on drone strikes against families in Pakistan and Afghanistan thats just fine by them.

Talk about skewed priorities.

Personally, i'd be happy if the money for the latter was spent on the former. If drug addicts are given the assistance to get out of their cycles it makes them more productive citizens which means more productivity and less crime which is good for everyone in the grand scheme of things.

The one head scratcher to me (as someone who spent years being a hardcore Libertarian) is how so many American libertarians are oh so opposed to the government, especially the "evil" federal one. That's fine, however almost without exception, these same libertarians advocate increasing border patrols/controls and are huge supporters of the military. Um, aren't those the two biggest functions of the US Federal government? They are also generally opposed to welfare, but seem to have no problem with the modern idea of a corporation. It's an artificial invention by the state that practically acts as welfare for the rich but I have never been able to get a libertarian to oppose the concept of a modern corporation, even the most hardcore of them.

I soon realize that many "leaders" of libertarianism have significant financial investments in the status quo and know how to steer the masses to serving their personal interests. It was a painful realization, but my Aspie naivety took them at face value for years. I soon found out that many libertarians generally support freedom: only if it benefits them personally that is. It was a depressing realization but I had to accept it after years of standing up for libertarianism.

I won't pretend that in the land of magical unicorn farts (Ireland) your government is perfect, but do you comprehend how INCOMPETENT the US Government is at managing things? Even at it's most efficient, services are not able to compare to what a private company can provide.

Competition and the power of the end user/consumer to CHOOSE who they want to service them is the key to keeping things efficient and cost effective. Government (certainly not here in the USA) is not the key.

I agree there is a need to rethink how we do health care in the USA. I could even be inclined to say perhaps it needs to be a "single payer" system, but I sure as Hell DO NOT trust the government to manage it for me.

If I have to hire someone for a job, I WILL NOT hire someone with a track record of incompetence, failing to get the job done on or under budget and consistent blame-shifting when something goes wrong. I will hire the person who does the job right on a consistent basis. The state fails on every count.

Heck, consider my pet peeve...BROADBAND ACCESS.

My road is one of the few that DOES NOT have the option. My phone company isn't investing in improving the infrastructure so I could go with the phone or cable company to get high-speed internet. There is satellite service, but it's spotty at best and would not work for my needs. Most every other road has it because they are handled by a different phone company that applied for and got government money (that MY TAXES funded) so they could upgrade the infrastructure and provide the service.

I can't change carriers because each company has a legal monopoly over the hardware they own. I can choose who I want to provide long-distance, but I can't choose domestic service. I'm at the mercy of who has the contract, and I GET NO CHOICE, but I'm taxed just as much as the others who have broadband access because they are with the other carrier.

Lack of competition = less choice, not more. The phone company knows I have no option because I can't go to their competition for service.

Last edited by zer0netgain on 20 Jan 2014, 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.