What would Islamic Europe look like?

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Hi all.

I've realized that the Muslims are totally going to take over Europe because the people of Europe have become SJW cucks. How do I know this? Well ... the conservatives said so! Would they ever lie to me?

What would Europe be like if it were under Islamic control? Let's take a look.

Would women be forced to wear veils? Maybe ... or maybe not. Use of the veil is not legally enforced in most Muslim countries. For the most part, it's just a choice that Muslim women make because of their devotion to God. Women are forced to cover themselves in Saudi Arabia ... but Saudi Arabia is an ally of Israel and America. Huh.

Would homosexuality be criminalized? Maybe ... or maybe not. Although homosexuality is illegal in most Muslim countries today, it was permitted in the Ottoman Empire. Today, homosexuality is legal in Albania, which is predominantly Muslim. It is also legal in the parts of Iraq which are not under ISIS control. That being said, most of these Islamophobic right-wingers probably don't really give a damn about gay rights anyway.

Would Christians be stoned to death? Probably not. There are many Christians in the Middle East who aren't being persecuted.

The following Middle Eastern countries contain more Christians than Israel: Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Iraq has a fairly large Christian minority as well. It seems as though Christians and Muslims are capable of coexisting peacefully. Christians and Muslims also peacefully coexist in most of sub-Saharan Africa. There is also a very large Christian community in Kazakhstan, which is mostly Muslim. All of this is understandable, since the Quran has nothing but positive things to say about Jesus.

This isn't a modern thing. Muhammad actually allowed Christians to practice their religion in his domain. Christianity has been tolerated in the Islamic world throughout most of its history.

There is, however, one Muslim county that will put any Christian to death. What country is it? You guessed it! Saudi Arabia! They murder Christians every day, they were behind 9/11, and, according to the US government, they din do nuffin.

Perhaps some Christian fundies would actually prefer living in the Middle East. Are you a devout Christian who is being oppressed by the homosexual agenda and being tempted by the Satanic porn industry? Most Middle Eastern Christians agree with you. Many fundies think that the West is full of "phony Christians" who believe in evolution and support LGBT rights. By that definition, most Middle Eastern Christians are "real Christians".

Would the Islamification of Europe lead to a new Holocaust? Probably not. Given that the Mizrahi Jews are still alive, the Islamification of Europe probably won't lead to a new Holocaust.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews

As you can see from that article, there are over 8,000 Mizrahi Jews in Iran - the country that allegedly wants to murder all the Jews. Maybe they just suck at genocide.

The Mizrahi Jews have been living in the Middle East for centuries ... despite the fact that Muhammad was allegedly the original Hitler. ... except he wasn't. In reality, Muhammad tolerated both Christianity and Judaism. He was extremely hostile towards polytheism, but Medieval Europe was no different in this regard.

Historically, most raving anti-Semites have been Christian. That is simply a fact. Nazi anti-Semitism was greatly inspired by the Anti-Semitism which had previously existed in Medieval Europe.

Here are some other facts about the Islamic world.

- Most Islamic countries are "fiscally conservative". In other words, they think that free healthcare is for sissies.
- Some Middle Eastern countries actually have a lot of private gun owners. This is especially true of Pakistan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Pakistan

Ummm ... why are so many conservatives so concerned about the spread of Islam?

It depends on which version of islam, and whether the adopted law is secular or Sharia - and whether there was an equivalent to the "renaissance" or to Ataturk reform in the Muslim Europe. If it's all like Albania or Turkey, then Europe would probably be like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4-Xz_Lt2p4 , yes these are Albanians, boobs and all.

Hard to tell, it could happen if there's a Muslim version of Hitler was born In the 'Muslim Europe' history alternative, if it had the same achievements in science and technology, then it's possible for them to feel superior over others, hence nazism.

It's worth to note that in the real history, Albania saved many Jews from the holocaust. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCuYBLT6NLM

What would happen if a middle-eastern religion came to domination in Europe?
Oh, wait, it already happened once.

I think Boo is right bringing up Albanians - they are Muslim and they are European. I could add Lipka Tatars as another (smaller) Muslim community that have been living in Europe for centuries.

already got my money down on which 2 posters who are going to run wild on this thread!

Yes, which faction of Islam it is matters hugely, but we all know what type it is that has people worried and why.

The type of Islam that has people worried is the type of Islam that the refugees are escaping from.

ISIS are basically Islamic fascists. Most of the Muslims who are escaping from ISIS are closer to conservatives in terms of overall attitude and outlook.

The red pill can be hard to swallow sometimes.

I'm just going to keep using facts. Anyone who wants to use this site just has to deal with that.

Are you talking "what if...way back when?" Or "what if in the near future?"

If Europe became Muslim back in the Middle ages then Europe would been integrated into the Muslim system of trade routes. The fall of Byzantium would not have cut off Christendom from the trade routes through the middle east to India and the Far east. So there would have been no need find sea routes to the east around Africa. So Henry the Navigator, ruler of Portugal would not have launched Portugal's maritime version of the Apollo Program to find routes to the Indian Ocean. This would not have provoked the rivalry with Spain. So no need for Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain to hire Columbus to find a second short cut to the far east by going west. Thus no discovery of America, and no age of discovery in general.

You talk about Islam taking over Europe and then you give examples of what that might look like but the radical,
d-i-y Islam that would (supposedly) take over Europe is entirely different from the non-radical Islamic countries you go on to describe as examples of what things might look like.

IS Europe would not be a very nice place for Christians, Jews or orthodox or moderate Muslims.

Last edited by elsapelsa on 03 Apr 2018, 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Unless muslim Europeans had developed their own branch of Islam, not accepted by the Middle-Easterners and thus, Europe would be cut out from the said routes anyway :>

Only two? We've got a few posters touched by the Islamo-hysteria, certainly more than two.

You assume that Islam (outside Europe) would evolve the same as it did, while reasonable Islam both within Europe and beyond would develop differently and with additional cultural influences. Further, while Islam would have altered the development of philosophy within Europe, it's not impossible that something analogous to the Enlightenment might have occurred, whether earlier or later than in our time line.

Much like Christianity would have developed differently had it not caught on in Europe, it's fair to assume that Islam's development would be influenced by additional cultures that adopted it.

How many of these migrants are radicals?
If they are radicals, why didn't they stay in the Middle East and surrender to ISIS?

Given that white supremacists and militant vegans both cause more domestic terrorism than Muslims, I'd say that these migrants are just conservative for the most part.

There are a lot of Muslims where I live. I hardly ever see a full burqa or even a niqāb. I see a lot of hijabs, but the hijab is no big deal. Russian Christian women often wear headscarves, but nobody ever complains about that. I also see a lot of veiled Muslims at the university, indicating that these migrants are willing to let women consume "subversive information". In the past, I have spoken to Muslim women who wore hijabs and self-identified as feminists.

Universities are often stereotypically portrayed as "feminist brainwashing institutions" ... so why do Muslim men allow their wives and daughters to attend? Furthermore, if these migrants can afford university, they must have high paying jobs. This dismantles another stereotype created by the far-right. I see no evidence that these Muslims are a bunch of welfare bums. You can't afford post-secondary with welfare payments.

These migrants clearly aren't radicals.

To be fair, there's far more white supremacists or militant vegans than militant Islamists, it would appear Islamists are more likely to act violently on those beliefs than other extremist groups. Further, vegans rarely kill or harm people in their terrorism and white supremacists commit large numbers of attacks, but only generate very few casualties per attack relative to Islamists.

Basically, violence from the left, the domestic right and the Islamist right all are unique in their acceptance by supporters of the ideology, their goals, methods, etc so it's not as simple of issue as merely comparing stats.

If we are talking about modern times (what I got from the first few paragraphs of the OP) I don't think it would happen.

If we watched something like the Beirut population percentage countdown game begin it seems like by the time you have 10 to 15% of the population as Muslim the cards are already on the table - ie. the religious impulse to push for Sharia compliance long before that and the general etiquette would be brash enough that the organized response would be decisive. I say that because the amount of group coercion that happens seems to make discretion and patience nearly impossible. The issue seems to be less about what percentage of the population are moderates and more to do with what degree of strength that the radicals are able to hold the whip-hand from the mosques and cultural centers and to what extent the incoming preachers from Saudi Arabia and Qatar can electrify everyone into order or terrify liberal Muslims into realizing that if they don't get more conservative they'll wind up dead. In a way it's comparable to what things would have been like if the Italian mafia were absolutely huge, owned by the Pope, nearly synonymous with Roman Catholicism, Italy exported eyes, ears, and muscle to any Western country, and the more the church had influence over Catholics the more Catholics would be forced to make a deal they couldn't refuse. Add to that, for boot, that if these Vatican crime syndicate preachers found out that you left the faith you'd be fitted with cement overshoes and sleeping with the fishes, or worse - your family would have to distance themselves from you or feel forced to do the honor killing to prove their loyalty.

What I think is much more likely if the whole thing goes on in denial, and this sucks because it's as bad, is something like civil war across Europe or major far-right parties overrunning things and either throwing out almost anyone who looks brown-skinned or doing some mix of both a) sending them back across the Mediterranean and b) outright killing them. That's what may very well happen if the political leaders and parties in charge allow increasing waves of the immigrants to come in who are pouring across Libya and other places. I've been hearing that the central governments, rather than continuing to ignore their populace, are starting to actually listen and slow down on the immigration. If that is the case, which I really hope it is, enough people might admit there's a problem and there might be decisive enough lines drawn around Sharia, what can and can't be preached in mosques, etc. that the cultural radicalization process would be deeply crippled and all of the moderate and liberal Muslims could be made to feel safe with whatever acclimation to their faith that they prefer.

The middle-ground case, which I worry could be likely, is that some particular country will have a significant outbreak of violence, some sort of religious coup to overtake government, and it might happen early enough for everyone else to put the breaks on and have their attention riveted on the issue. That's still a terrible outcome for the fact of it even needing to happen in the first place. If I were to worry about this happening in any particular country it would most likely the one who finds that Islamism allows them to shut down political criticism and who gets too comfortable with using that trade off cynically.

The vast majority of migrants are either moderate or orthodox muslims but not Islamists. The vast majority of first generation migrants to America either come for economic reasons or for political reasons and have every intention of attempting to reintegrate into the new country. Often, as in the American example, fairly successfully. I know families who work extremely hard in shift jobs and who never would have been able to send their children to university and manage to get their kids brilliant educations. America is full of pockets of highly educated professional Muslims who want nothing to do with Islamism. American Muslim girls who care about jeans and fashion and are feminists. American Muslim women who wear full niqab and still manage to get through law school pass the bar etc. and who identify as feminists. Any variety of person, just like elsewhere. But what they clearly share is a dislike of islamists who are making life harder for them in every possible way but in particular as they make them targets of discrimation and make it harder for them to achieve their aim of living peacefully and raising their children and the next generation in a more democratic place.

In America many muslims don't even find the word assimilation an ugly word, they use it to describe their aims.

Now in Europe things look slightly different. First generation might migrate because of similar aims. However many of the first generation are less educated. Fewer come for economic migration and more come because they are fleeing war. They try to integrate but it is much much harder. In countries like Sweden getting a job and making a living is extremely hard for a migrant. They are automatically put into the welfare system. They are viewed with suspicion. They are housed separately in certain areas most ethnic swedes don't live in. One might have evidence for saying that Sweden is rather militantly feminist. Either way, Muslim women have not had an easy time here. Feminism certainly hasn't helped their cause. And second and third generation muslims might find themselves in a situation where they are very alienated from the country they live in. Alienated from their first generation parents and where, adding in a bunch of other factors, they become possible targets for radicalisation. And that is not even looking at France where the situation is far worse....

Tackling IS is therefore to a large part not just a war in Syria but requires rethinking integration. Either way the moderate or orthodox muslims that you are surrounded by are not trying to set up a caliphate in Europe. So they would not be a good indication of what a caliphate would look like as they would rather choose the American version of democracy.