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magz
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29 Jan 2021, 8:40 am

No, YouTube is not inherently evil :D But there are dangers of using it outside of its original purpose, which is entertainment.

YouTube algorithms - just like in many other entertainment platforms - show you content based on what you've already watched and what people of similar taste choose. That's a good automatic way to suggest entertainment you may enjoy: you like opera, how about another opera, you watch hilarious animals, let's see more of them, etc.

Unfortunately, YouTube is also popularily used for political commentary. You see the danger?
You watch left-wing video, it will suggest you more left-wing videos. You watch right-wing video, it will feed you a stream of right-wing videos. You're into conspiracies - there you are!
Youtube algorithms used for political and other world-view commentary will automatically feed you with a constant stream of similar opinions. Usually - opinions similar to your own. They will create a false image that everyone agrees with you - no matter if you're left-wing, right-wing, anarchist or lizard people flat-earther.

I see no systematic solution to the issue. Just be aware of it. Algorithms intended to suggest entertainment you may enjoy will create a false image of everyone agreeing with you when used for world-view commentaries.


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Fnord
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29 Jan 2021, 9:25 am

Treat YouTube videos on philosophy, politics, and religion as satire only, or ignore them completely.

The process Magz described seems to be the most likely scenario.

1. You watch a few YouTube videos is one particular subject.
2. YouTube's algorithms determine that videos on that subject are all you ever want to watch.
3. YouTube starts feeding you videos on only that subject.
4. You begin to believe that "everybody" believes in what those videos portray.
5. Your beliefs shift to match those of "everybody".
6. You become a tool to the beliefs of "everybody".


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Bradleigh
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29 Jan 2021, 9:48 am

I feel called out. I totally consume a lot of videos on politics and philosophy.

I would probably say the best parts are where there bits of differences between channels. I can get a totally different perspective with Vaush than with Thought Slime. The best types are videos are probably the kind that actually looks at someone else's work that you can find on YouTube, like looking at a PragerU video or a dumb take from Ben Shapiro, which means they break down and try to explain whether something is correct or wrong.

A good deal of the ones I follow are pretty clear about the size of what the online Left is in comparison to the rest of society, and deals a lot in varied opinions. I hardly think that is just some rabbit hole of thinking that everyone just agrees with what algorithm I might be in. And I am a little confused by the insinuation of what would be better, just trusting that whatever a single network says as it wrapped around in things like big money.

A lot of the channels themselves have at least at one time gone into the likes of talking about pipelines and the dangers of echo chambers.


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CockneyRebel
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29 Jan 2021, 9:54 am

I watch a lot of videos on politics, but I don't feel called out. I think it's great that people on WP are speaking their minds.


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VegetableMan
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29 Jan 2021, 10:01 am

There are crackpots on YouTube, and there are exceptional poltical commentators. The frightening thing is we are gong to continue to see alternative voices attacked in the current political climate.


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Fnord
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29 Jan 2021, 10:06 am

VegetableMan wrote:
There are crackpots on YouTube, and there are exceptional political commentators. The frightening thing is ...
The REALLY frightening thing is that too many people cannot tell the difference between the two.


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KT67
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29 Jan 2021, 10:19 am

I don't want to be a centrist though. Instead, I want opinions from multiple demographics. If I want centrism, I'll put on the BBC.

The difference between youtube (bread tube) and twitter leftists tends to be in my experience the better youtube channels actually research their stuff and less likely to 'cancel' people or all have the exact same opinion. Youtubers who are successful veer older I think - not 'old old' but more around my generation (Millennials) than Zoomers.

And YouTube can also be used educationally, which is the best way to use it imo. I know far more about science from watching Crash Course and Sci Show than I ever learnt at my dyspraxia-unfriendly school.

When YouTube started out, it was even worse than TikTok is now for 'entertainment'. Only so many cats I want to watch playing piano.

I would say: be aware it's biased! But be aware of that whenever you read or watch political commentary!

And watch your opponents from time to time, too.


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NaturalEntity
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29 Jan 2021, 12:15 pm

Yeah, I know the dangers of echo chambers and I understand where you're coming from. I occasionally stick my head into commentary YouTube territory, but only periodically. I generally stay with comics, memes, animatics, and music.
Edit: oh, and lore videos. And video essays. Those too.


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League_Girl
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29 Jan 2021, 12:39 pm

While youtube can be educational at times, I also tell my son people also post their opinions on youtube. He told me that this one youtuber was an idiot for saying this boss is easy when it looked hard and I told him "it does not make him stupid, that is just his opinion. Everyone has different skill level in video games so they might find some bosses and levels harder than others or easier than others."

I listen to both sides on youtube lol. I have watched Kaitlin Bennet, shoeonhead, Blair White, Ben Shapiro, Fox News, Calvin Garrah, Contrapoints, catloading, etc.


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magz
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29 Jan 2021, 1:01 pm

NaturalEntity wrote:
Yeah, I know the dangers of echo chambers and I understand where you're coming from. I occasionally stick my head into commentary YouTube territory, but only periodically. I generally stay with comics, memes, animatics, and music.
Edit: oh, and lore videos. And video essays. Those too.

Thinking of it: Maintaining the constructive balance between echo chamber and battleground is tricky.


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NaturalEntity
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29 Jan 2021, 1:06 pm

magz wrote:
NaturalEntity wrote:
Yeah, I know the dangers of echo chambers and I understand where you're coming from. I occasionally stick my head into commentary YouTube territory, but only periodically. I generally stay with comics, memes, animatics, and music.
Edit: oh, and lore videos. And video essays. Those too.

Thinking of it: Maintaining the constructive balance between echo chamber and battleground is tricky.

That's also true.


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VegetableMan
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29 Jan 2021, 1:24 pm

Perhaps we should focus more on why people are so susceptible to following crackpots on YouTube. I have a good answer to that. We have been systematically herded to one side of the poltical fence or the other. It doesn't matter what team you pick. You are still supporting corruption. And when the lemmings take to social media, they will gather all the like-minded robots into their corner. If something supports the political cult you've chosen, then there's no need to research further.

This will work! This will get under their skin!

If Russia subverted our election by posting memes on social media, I'd say we got what we deserve. (It's not like we had much of a Democracy left, anyway. )

Most of Americans won't notice when all alternative voices disappear, because most Americans watch MSM, and those voices are blocked from those channels.

We are entering a very dangerous period. The downfall of Trump has strengthened the very system that produced him. If we don't understand this, we will continue to circle the drain. We've only rearranged the deck chairs on the Titanic.


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29 Jan 2021, 2:45 pm

But without YouTube, how would I know about great stuff like this?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNySjrZAxHg
:lol:



slam_thunderhide
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29 Jan 2021, 2:47 pm

magz wrote:
No, YouTube is not inherently evil :D But there are dangers of using it outside of its original purpose, which is entertainment.

YouTube algorithms - just like in many other entertainment platforms - show you content based on what you've already watched and what people of similar taste choose. That's a good automatic way to suggest entertainment you may enjoy: you like opera, how about another opera, you watch hilarious animals, let's see more of them, etc.

Unfortunately, YouTube is also popularily used for political commentary. You see the danger?
You watch left-wing video, it will suggest you more left-wing videos. You watch right-wing video, it will feed you a stream of right-wing videos. You're into conspiracies - there you are!
Youtube algorithms used for political and other world-view commentary will automatically feed you with a constant stream of similar opinions. Usually - opinions similar to your own. They will create a false image that everyone agrees with you - no matter if you're left-wing, right-wing, anarchist or lizard people flat-earther.

I see no systematic solution to the issue. Just be aware of it. Algorithms intended to suggest entertainment you may enjoy will create a false image of everyone agreeing with you when used for world-view commentaries.


If you're saying that when people watch political videos on YouTube, they only tend to watch videos expressing views they already agree with, then that contradicts one of the most common claims made in the mainstream media, i.e.- that people are somehow getting passively radicalized by youtube as the youtube algorithm takes them down the so-called rabbit hole. I agree with you here (as far as I can tell). Research and common sense suggests that people watch alternative political commentary videos online because they actively seek them out - the recommendation algorithms merely help them find what they were already looking for.

But when you say that people who watch alternative political videos end up believing that everyone else agrees with them, I don't see how that follows at all. The whole point of alternative political media - as they usually make very clear to whoever consumes it - is that they're providing news, commentary and ideas that are not covered by the mainstream. What you have described actually explains one of the establishment's methods for manufacturing consent; I don't see how the same criticism can be levelled against alt-media. If you want to criticize alt-media junkies on the grounds that they (stubbornly?) believe they have special insider knowledge that the masses don't understand, that would at least make more sense.



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29 Jan 2021, 2:56 pm

I only listen to old music, and travel vlogs on YouTube. I don't bother with the political crap.

I have a strong reliance on YouTube.



naturalplastic
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29 Jan 2021, 4:55 pm

Utube is very addicting. It IS very informative. Very scary. Basically its the fast lane of the information/disinformation super highway. Drive with caution. Both Big Brother (the forces of corporate marketing), and Little Brother (the forces of anarchy by individual crackpots) are there to prey on you.