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skafather84
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19 Sep 2008, 11:42 pm

So with all of these bail-outs, what's people's thoughts on it?


I'm scared s**tless of it, to be honest. The last few times the government has tried to play a direct role in the economy, it'd achieve a temporary alleviation followed by a harder drop. How's this money supposed to be payed back? Is it ever? How come companies are getting free money for failure? Is our financial infrastructure via fiat money that structurally insecure that we still have to fudge numbers and try to prop up our economy?


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claire-333
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20 Sep 2008, 12:02 am

Hmm...I try not to watch too much news, but it seems to be running constantly in my home lately and I cannot help but pick up on bits. It may seem like the media is trying to pin this one on the republicans, but from what I understand; this is all a direct cause of the Clinton administration ordering the countries largent mortgage company to provide home loans to high risk applicants. Things are falling apart now. It made the economy look great at the time...lots of money for everyone, the american dream for all, but now it is time to pay. No one bothered to question why the government would appoint its own people to the board of directors of the nation's lagest lending firm, or if handing out so much risky money was such a good idea. The government is directly responsible for this problem and I think it is not only the right thing to do, but also wise considering our current economy. From what I understand the 85 billion bail-out to AIG is a two year loan. I'm not sure about the rest of the bail-outs. Anyway...that's my take. But like I said, not much for the news so I could be misinformed.



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20 Sep 2008, 1:43 am

Welfare is bad because poor people are poor and failures because of laziness or failings on their own part, so we should let them starve... oh, but a business failing, we have to help them out. It's not their fault.[/sarcasm]


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20 Sep 2008, 1:50 am

Orwell wrote:
Welfare is bad because poor people are poor and failures because of laziness or failings on their own part, so we should let them starve... oh, but a business failing, we have to help them out. It's not their fault.[/sarcasm]


Yep, that's true...but Democrats are not free of guilt either. I think it was either Charles Schumer or Russ Feingold that came up with the wise idea to save Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac from going belly up.

Politicians expect big payoffs from giving large companies and firms big slices of emergency cheese. Once the company gets back on it's feet, they will give whichever politican who supported the company financial backing.

It's a two-way client system.


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Cyanide
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20 Sep 2008, 4:39 am

I have your same worries, skafather.



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20 Sep 2008, 8:48 am

This is all signs that the US government is really a corporatist government... corporations have more rights than real people...



claire-333
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20 Sep 2008, 10:34 am

Orwell wrote:
Welfare is bad because poor people are poor and failures because of laziness or failings on their own part, so we should let them starve... oh, but a business failing, we have to help them out. It's not their fault.[/sarcasm]
Who says welfare is bad? If our economy fails and a large portion of our population is forced into poverty, where is the money to support the welfare system going to come from?

ToadOfSteel wrote:
This is all signs that the US government is really a corporatist government... corporations have more rights than real people...
Corporations are real people. This not a situation of some rich fat cat with a failing big business. Corporations are owned by investors (people), they employ people. The company I work for is owned by a large global holding corporation, which owns many companies. If the corporation were to fail, it would put over twenty large companies out of business and hundreds of thousands of people would be out of work world wide, not to mention the financial damage it would do to the people who have money invested in corporate stock.



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20 Sep 2008, 10:41 am

claire333 wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Welfare is bad because poor people are poor and failures because of laziness or failings on their own part, so we should let them starve... oh, but a business failing, we have to help them out. It's not their fault.[/sarcasm]
Who says welfare is bad? If our economy fails and a large portion of our population is forced into poverty, where is the money to support the welfare system going to come from?

That's what the [/sarcasm] was for. I was speaking from the voice of the Republican Party.


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claire-333
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20 Sep 2008, 10:56 am

Orwell wrote:
That's what the [/sarcasm] was for. I was speaking from the voice of the Republican Party.
ok. I noticed the 'sarcasm' but did not realize it did not apply to the whole statement, because in my view; it is really not the corporation's fault. It seems the government forced them into the situation.



Last edited by claire-333 on 20 Sep 2008, 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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20 Sep 2008, 10:58 am

claire333 wrote:
ok. I noticed the 'sarcasm' but did not realize it applied to the whole statement, because in my view; it is really not the corporation's fault. It seems the government forced them into the situation.

How did the government force all these banks to collapse? Unless you're going to argue Austrian business cycles and blame fiat money for the recession, I don't see how these problems are the government's fault.


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claire-333
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20 Sep 2008, 11:02 am

I may be misinformed but from my understanding, the Clinton administration appointed thier own officials to the board of directors of these mortgage firms and instructed them to approve the high risk home loans which are now causing them to fail.



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20 Sep 2008, 11:13 am

If that's true, its news to me. I'm too lazy right now to go research it.


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claire-333
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20 Sep 2008, 11:32 am

Ugh...me too. Who knows. The media is so biased in both directions right now. Blame Clinton! Blame Bush! I've even heard it was Obama and McCain's fault...he he. I'm just glad to see the government is trying to do something about it. If all our large holding firms start falling to bits, we'll all be out of a job.



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20 Sep 2008, 11:40 am

claire333 wrote:
Hmm...I try not to watch too much news .... but from what I understand; this is all a direct cause of the Clinton administration ordering the countries largent mortgage company to provide home loans to high risk applicants. Things are falling apart now.


That is too simple an explanation - both Clinton and Bush favored more people owning their own homes, and neither 'ordered' mortgage companies to accept people regardless of the risk. If it was only an executive order from Clinton, Bush could have reversed it 8 years ago.

The biggest factor in the subprime was the change in the way that mortgages are done. In the old days, a local bank (or local branch of a national bank) made a mortgage loan, and they kept it for 15-30 years and made a modest profit off it for however long the loan lasted.

Most real economists point to the repeal of the Glass-Steagall act and new rules for banks, stock brokers, and insurance companies with the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (created by Phil Gramm, economic adviser to McCain). Clinton did sign the law as part of his bipartisanship (along with welfare reform, NAFTA and other centrist positions). With Gramm's law, banks were free to do pretty much what they wanted. What they did was decide it was clever to bundle a thousand or ten thousand mortgages into a 'security' and then sell that block of loans to investors. So overnight, they lost any incentive to only give loans to people that could pay them back. Instead, they had a huge incentive to make as many loans as possible, as they got fees for doing this. It no longer mattered if the mortgages were solid, as long as they could be bundled and sold, the banks and mortgage companies made big money.

Add to this the bubble in real estate, where every Joe and Jane were convinced that prices would always go up (10-20% a year was common), so buying an extra house or upgrading to a larger, newer house seemed to make sense - buy it now for $200,000 and in ten years it will be worth $400,000.

There is also a huge bubble in other types of financial devices - AIG is an insurance group, and Lehman Brothers was a trading company - their collapse is not due to any order from Clinton, but from going beserk once they were deregulated.

The amount of derrivatives out there is incredibly huge - these are basically bets on how something is going to move in the market ... the amount of oil future contracts bought and sold each year has become far, far larger than the amount of oil bought and sold. There are derrivatives so strange and twisted that few people really understand them.

The history of capitalism is a history of booms and busts, of bubbles and hangovers. Glass-Steagall was supposed to limit people, and once that was removed, the money boys in Wall Street went on the mother of all binges. Now you get to pay.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass-Steagall_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm-Leach-Bliley_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania



techstepgenr8tion
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20 Sep 2008, 11:47 am

skafather84 wrote:
So with all of these bail-outs, what's people's thoughts on it?


I'm scared s**tless of it, to be honest. The last few times the government has tried to play a direct role in the economy, it'd achieve a temporary alleviation followed by a harder drop. How's this money supposed to be payed back? Is it ever? How come companies are getting free money for failure? Is our financial infrastructure via fiat money that structurally insecure that we still have to fudge numbers and try to prop up our economy?


I'm not liking it either. What's crazy though is CNN, BBC, everyone having all kinds of the best and the brightest economists on - and they all differ.

Being fair with this though, this isn't a Republican problem specifically - this is Bush's fault, Clinton's Fault, Reagan's Fault, Carter's Fault, it goes all the way back down the line. The extent of the democrats involvement in causing the problem were accusations and allegations of racism and redlining, lending discrimination, and a lot of people - all colors but not having the means - buying houses that they couldn't keep up with.

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/07 ... fanni.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/Housing0 ... 5920080220
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/? ... U1M2M0OWU=
http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/23617.html


Also, on McCain with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac - it looks like he's safe on this issue:
http://paxalles.blogs.com/paxalles/2008 ... nsore.html

Obama, not so sure he had the same luck:
http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/09 ... eddie.html



claire-333
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20 Sep 2008, 11:50 am

monty wrote:
There are derrivatives so strange and twisted that few people really understand them.
I am certainly not one of those few. Thank you for your explaination. I'm just a little guy, who hopes the corporation that owns the company I work for can hold it together, so I can still have my job. It is all so confusing and a little frightening. Isn't this the reason Bush approved the Sarbanes Oxley Act? All this paper shuffling to make the numbers look good...