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A story by Isaac Asimov (WARNING: Depressing as hell)

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Orwell
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21 Jan 2009, 9:02 pm

This story by Asimov is about mankind's desire to reverse the Second Law of Thermodynamics. It puts me in a very pessimistic mood.
http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html

Discuss the philosophical and/or religious implications of entropy, especially as relating to The Last Question by Asimov.


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Awesomelyglorious
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21 Jan 2009, 9:34 pm

I thought the story was stupid. How's that for an implication of entropy? Or to make it better, entropy makes Isaac Asimov write bad short stories, a very interesting philosophical, and perhaps religious implication. After all, is this just a part of Isaac Asimov's nature, or is it part of human nature, or was this ordained, or what??

In any case, from the common Christian view, entropy is meaningless as many Christians expect the world to end and mankind with it. A mankind that lasted anywhere as long as that short story would break the religion.



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21 Jan 2009, 9:55 pm

In what ways was the story stupid?


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claire-333
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21 Jan 2009, 10:07 pm

...



Last edited by claire-333 on 24 Jan 2009, 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Awesomelyglorious
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21 Jan 2009, 10:08 pm

Orwell wrote:
In what ways was the story stupid?

Hmm.... that is a rather hard question, because I didn't like it, period. I mean... there was nothing about it that I felt to be worth my time at all.



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21 Jan 2009, 10:11 pm

Orwell wrote:
This story by Asimov is about mankind's desire to reverse the Second Law of Thermodynamics. It puts me in a very pessimistic mood.
http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html

Discuss the philosophical and/or religious implications of entropy, especially as relating to The Last Question by Asimov.


I've read this story, and my response was not pessimistic. If anything, it was positive. Kind of reminds me of that one particular Futurama episode. :wink:

Why did the story put you in a very pessismtic mood?



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21 Jan 2009, 10:11 pm

claire333 wrote:
I liked it, but my views are quite deterministic and the second law of thermodynamics on a universal scale is scientific determinism at its best. I think if I were a theist, I would also have views of theological determinism. Asmov seems to have a problem with facing both.

Long time no see. (:


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21 Jan 2009, 10:15 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
I thought the story was stupid. How's that for an implication of entropy? Or to make it better, entropy makes Isaac Asimov write bad short stories, a very interesting philosophical, and perhaps religious implication. After all, is this just a part of Isaac Asimov's nature, or is it part of human nature, or was this ordained, or what??

In any case, from the common Christian view, entropy is meaningless as many Christians expect the world to end and mankind with it. A mankind that lasted anywhere as long as that short story would break the religion.


Why?



ike
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21 Jan 2009, 10:19 pm

I thought you were going to post the short where it ends by saying that the series of robots was discontinued "not because robots aren't capable of falling in love, but because women are". I saw the topic of the thread and had a sudden flashback and it seemed suddenly like a very autistic sort of thing. :)


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Awesomelyglorious
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21 Jan 2009, 10:21 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Why?

You mean for the religion? Traditional views of the Christian religion typically presume both an end times(Revelations being obsessed with this matter) and a creature that can be known as "man" whom God created and saved, something that extreme periods of time would end up causing to go away due to evolution, and large genetic alterations, and in this story we had digitization which would be theologically the same in it's problems.



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21 Jan 2009, 10:24 pm

claire333 wrote:
I liked it, but my views are quite deterministic and the second law of thermodynamics on a universal scale is scientific determinism at its best. I think if I were a theist, I would also have views of theological determinism. Asmov seems to have a problem with facing both.

I am deterministic too, but to me, entropy is so obvious that writing this story is trivial to the point of stupidity, and I see the end as pretty lame as well, as it is an intentional assertion of a religious theme but the manner it was done just seems tasteless. I mean, I really do see this story as without much merit at all.

Also, I agree with twoshots. Long time, no see.



Last edited by Awesomelyglorious on 21 Jan 2009, 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

slowmutant
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21 Jan 2009, 10:24 pm

How can an infinite universe ever exhaust itself? :scratch: If it's subject to entropy, it must be finite.

That's one thing I don't understand.



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21 Jan 2009, 10:26 pm

slowmutant wrote:
How can an infinite universe ever exhaust itself? :scratch: If it's subject to entropy, it must be finite.

That's one thing I don't understand.

Umm... the universe is considered to have finite mass and finite energy, thus it can exhaust itself. In any case, it is possible for a non-exhaustible universe to have entropy, it is just that there must be an infinite source of energy.



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21 Jan 2009, 10:27 pm

Quote:
I mean, I really do see this story as without much merit at all.


I quite disagree. I found it to be very thought-provoking, from both a scientific and theological perspective.



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21 Jan 2009, 10:28 pm

slowmutant wrote:
I've read this story, and my response was not pessimistic. If anything, it was positive. Kind of reminds me of that one particular Futurama episode. :wink:

Why did the story put you in a very pessismtic mood?

It put me in a pessimistic mood because the concept of entropy is extremely depressing, something that is difficult to come to terms with. For everything we do, all our struggles and triumphs, in the end it is moot. I sympathized with the anguish felt by the several people who asked Multivac how to reverse entropy. The idea that all our work, in the end, comes to naught is a very sad thing to know.

claire333 wrote:
I liked it, but my views are quite deterministic and the second law of thermodynamics on a universal scale is scientific determinism at its best. I think if I were a theist, I would also have views of theological determinism. Asmov seems to have a problem with facing both.

I am a determinist, but that doesn't mean I feel all warm and fuzzy about the universe going cold and dead.

ike wrote:
I thought you were going to post the short where it ends by saying that the series of robots was discontinued "not because robots aren't capable of falling in love, but because women are". I saw the topic of the thread and had a sudden flashback and it seemed suddenly like a very autistic sort of thing. :)

Interesting. Do you happen to remember what story that is? I'd like to read it.


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21 Jan 2009, 10:31 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
claire333 wrote:
I liked it, but my views are quite deterministic and the second law of thermodynamics on a universal scale is scientific determinism at its best. I think if I were a theist, I would also have views of theological determinism. Asmov seems to have a problem with facing both.

I am deterministic too, but to me, entropy is so obvious that writing this story is trivial to the point of stupidity, and I see the end as pretty lame as well, as it is an intentional assertion of a religious theme but the manner it was done just seems tasteless. I mean, I really do see this story as without much merit at all.

Also, I agree with twoshots. Long time, no see.

Entropy is obvious, yes, but that doesn't make it any less depressing when you think about its long-term implications. The end was not as good as it could have been. Too much of a literal deus ex machina for my taste. But the rest of the story?

Oh yes, and welcome back claire333.


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