US Healthcare reform

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No, you've only shown that those who deliberately spread lies and disinformation can be reported. I agree with that. We had eight years of Republican lies under Bush, now that they're out of power they're still lying, only now they're shouting much louder.

I've already pointed out several of those lies in this topic.

I never made the argument that if A then B, you just did. To think that if one "non profit" is subject in criminal controversy that implies that "for profits" are angels is quite a dubious assumption from my prose. That is a major leap but it goes well with your argument.

I simply pointed out that either way, for profit or not, people make the decisions and some people make selfish decisions. Whether it be a communist country with no currency, a socialistic country or a capitalistic country, selfish decisions are made every day in the best interest of the individual not the masses.

Anyone on the board of a non profit. I am! Do non profits print up items such as pens, buttons, shirts... with their logo and then sell or give them away as fund raising?

Now we can argue all day about the CAPITALISM or INDUSTRIALIZATION = DESTRUCTION OF THE ENVIRONMENT or HUMAN ENVIRONMENT ideology or at times theology, but find it confusing the facts of public vs. private health care.

I was asked to show proof of a ongoing effort by the white house to ask for people to submit disinformation about the current health care reform debate. I did whether you agree or not...does not matter. If you believe that these sources are not correct then please take legal action versus them and come back at a later time with the results.

Again, that's not true. You were asked to back up your statement that "the whitehouse is asking for its supporters to inform on people with differing views on this health care subject." Surely you know the difference between "differing views" and "lies," right?

By which time it totally won't matter if they're proven to be lies. Lies and propaganda don't have to be un-debunkable, they only have to last long enough. I.e. "Iraq caused 911" "Iraq has WMD's" -- oh those aren't true? Oh well, too late, we're already at war. Or the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, or the "Brooks Brothers" protesters in Florida in 2000. Disinformation 101.

The administration is mounting an effort to fight the lies as fast as they can, but obviously it's easier to generate falsehoods (like "Obamacare will euthanize your grandma") than to debunk them. There's a lot of disinformation out there in the media now, but by the time it's all debunked, it won't matter, and the people generating it know this. This whole fight comes down to who wins the (dis)information war.

Mr. Ed, if an opinion is different then it differs based on lies or not. If you want to play word games then let's play, [edited by sinsboldly] You want to argue for the sake of argument. Bored?

By creating a govt. run health care alternative that competes with private insurance, and by Mr. Obama's own words which I linked to in a Youtube video or you can watch the entire video, will lead to the erosion of the private sector health insurance market, creating a Govt. monopoly on health care coverage. Stop lying to people Mr. Ed. Govt. monopoly is still a monopoly.

The bill was slated as "Health Care Reform" but that turned out to not be popular so there was an effort to re-characterize this bill as "Health Insurance Reform". Stop lying Mr. Ed. If it is all about Health insurance reform then why the renaming by the DEmocrats.

Maybe if health care reform did go through I would only have to read your [edited by sinsboldly] for the next couple of years, so that is a bonus. Something for us 20-40 year olds to ponder.

I apologize, I was likely tired or just had a brain fart at that point as you are right, the claim I made was grossly incorrect.

Well, you had one guy who worked for the Bush administration and a Harvard economist and their analyses were about the same. Perhaps they were wrong or fed bad information from the same source, but I would have some doubt on that matter.

Deciding not to buy insurance does seem a very valid inference given that this inference is based upon the income of these individuals. In addition, other elements of this were people who are covered by pre-existing programs.

In any case, I don't think anyone is arguing that the system doesn't have flaws though, the argument is mostly about healthcare form in the way of nationalization. I mean, I may have stated the idea of a voucher before, as such an option would still cover the expenses of the group of people who really cannot afford health insurance, and if extended on a larger scale can allow for a freer market in health insurance, as well as separating health insurance from employment(as that is another possible source of people without healthcare).

The numbers game is essential though to some extent, as the issue is the extent to which something is a problem. I mean, all problems in society are human problems, and the problem is that these human problems have to be balanced against other human problems, as well as thinking about the long-run. If 300 million Americans have massive healthcare issues of some sort that can be fixed, then we definitely have to reform, but if the number is smaller then it becomes more possible that the problem could even fix itself in the long-run without invoking a solution one considers problematic.

I can't believe that so many people are working so hard to preserve the right of insurance companies to screw them

As I already pointed out, your "Harvard Economist" is one of the leading free-market economists, and a very biased source.

Ogg, you are making some dubious assumptions, and coming to a faulty conclusion.

Take the fact that we have a government run post office service. It has not caused an erosion of other private alternatives - we still have Fedex, United Parcel Service, email, and various courier services. Because there are different niches to fill - Fedex does very well by focusing on a portion of the document and parcel delivery world that they think they can do better than the government. Likewise with the United Parcel. The market is big enough for multiple entities to coexist. And people are free to choose how they want to ship. The same would be true of medical insurance - I would probably keep the insurance I have, but others might not be interested, or might not qualify. The most likely possibility is that over time, a 2-tier system would evolve, where the private insurance is more expensive and offers more niceties ... but that possibility doesn't bother me much. Absolute equality is not possible, nor is it a goal worth pursuing, IMO. Providing a base level of coverage for everyone is possible, and I think that would be a big improvement.

And at the same time, finding non-biased information is not likely for any side. However, the matter in question is essentially one of fact, and one doesn't become a Harvard economist through obvious lies, perhaps questionable equivocations, but those aren't involved in this situation.

Here are a few excerpts from the "America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009," H.R. 3200, that I just recently found online. And here's a link to the full text of the H.R. 3200 bill:

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text

PG 22 – Mandates the Govt will audit books of all employers that self insure.

PG 29 – lines 4-16 – Your HC is rationed.

PG 30, Sec 123 – A new Govt committee decides what treatments/benefits you get.

PG 42 – The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC benefits for you. you have no choice.

PG 50, Section 152 – HC will be provided to ALL US residents, including non-citizens, legal or illegal.

PG 58 – Govt will have real-time access to individual finances & a National ID Healthcard will be issued.

PG 59, Lines 21-24 – Govt will have direct access to your bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.

PG 65, Sec 164 – A payoff for trade unions & community organizations (e.g. -ACORN) retirees and their families – their own subsidized HC plan.

PG 72, Lines 8-14 – Govt is creating a HC Exchange to bring private HC plans under Govt control.

PG 84, Sec 203 – Govt mandates ALL benefit packages for private HC plans in the Exchange.

PG 85, Line 7 – Specs for of benefit levels for plans = The Govt will ration your Healthcare.

PG 91, Lines 4-7 – Govt mandates linguistic services; i.e., – translation for illegal aliens.

PG 95, Lines 8-18 – The Govt will use groups; e.g., ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals for Govt HC plan.

PG 102, Lines 12-18 – Medicaid eligible individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.

PG 124, Lines 24 – No company can sue Govt on price fixing. No “judicial review” against Govt monopoly.

PG 126, Lines 22-25 – Employers MUST pay for HC for part time employees AND their families.

PG 127, Lines 1-16 – Govt will decree doctor income.

PG 145, Line 15-17 An employer MUST enroll employees into public option plan. NO CHOICE.

PG 149, Lines 16-24 – ANY Employer w/payroll $400k & above who does not provide pub opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll

PG 150, Lines 9-13 – Employer w/payroll between $251k & $400k who doesn’t provide pub. opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll

PG 167, Lines 18-23 – ANY individual who doesn’t have acceptable HC according to Govt rules will be taxed 2.5% of income.

PG 170, Lines 1-3 – Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay for their HC while they are here.)

PG 195 – Officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access to ALL Americans’ financial & personal records.

PG 203, Line 14-15 – “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax” Yes, it says that.

PG 239, Line 14-24 – Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected.

PG 241, Line 6-8 – All doctors no matter what specialty, skills or training will be paid the same.

PG 253, Line 10-18 – Govt sets value of doctors’ time, professional judgement, etc. Literally government placing a value on human skills and human time.

PG 265, Sec 1131 – Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries.

PG 268, Sec 1141 – Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs

PG 272 SEC. 1145 – Treatment of Certain cancer Hospitals – Cancer patients – welcome to rationing.

Page 280, Sec 1151 – The Govt will penalize hospitals for what Govt deems preventable readmissions.

PG 298, Lines 9-11 – Doctors who treat a patient during initial admission that results in a re-admission will be penalized by Govt .

PG 317, Lines 13-20 – Prohibition/limits of doctors’ ownership/investment. Govt tells doctors what/how much they can own.

PG 317-318, Lines 21-25, 1-3 – Govt mandates hospitals cannot expand

PG 321 2-13 – Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception with community input required. Another job for ACORN, PETA, or any envirowacko’s.

PG 335, L 16-25 PG 336-339 – Govt mandates establishment of outcome based measures. HC the Govt way. Rationing.

PG 341, Lines 3-9 – Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare, HMO’s, private fee for service plans and force people into Govt plan.

PG 354, Sec 1177 – Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of special needs people. All you folks with Downes, cerebral palsy, polio and amputees report to the crematorium, stat.

PG 379, Sec 1191 – Govt creates more bureaucracy – Telehealth Advisory Committee. Can you say HC by phone?

PG 425, Lines 4-12 – Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consultations. Another bureaucaracy of ‘helping professionals’ to take your parents from you.

PG 425, Lines 17-19 – Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory participation.

PG 425, Lines 22-25, 426, Lines 1-3 – Govt provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you to death

PG 427, Lines 15-24 – Govt mandates program for orders for end of life. The Govt has a say in how your life ends.

PG 429, Lines 1-9 – An “advance care planning consultant” will be used frequently as patients health deteriorates

PG 429, Lines 10-12 – “advance care consultation” may include an ORDER for end of life plans. An ORDER from Government about ending your loved one’s life.

PG 429, Lines 13-25 – The Govt will specify which doctors can write an end of life order.

Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORGANIZATION. 1 monthly payment to a community-based organization.(Like ACORN?)

It seems like those opposed to a government plan are making a huge jump by saying the private sector will collapse. This just sounds like baseless right-wing socialist fear mongering to me. 1984 was fiction - how paranoid are you guys, really? The truth is that no one knows exactly how it will play out, but I think that the two-tier scenario that monty suggested would be a very likely outcome. Personally, I would love it if we had universal healthcare in this country, but I think pigs might fly first. I happen to think that the current healthcare system is broken beyond repair and it's time to start over from the ground up. I'm also realistic enough to know that my opinion lies within a minority. That's OK by me, I'm entitled to my own opinion.

So most have said that they are in favor of reform to some degree, yet very few and only very vague suggestions have been made by those who oppose the Obama plan. So, again, what are your ideas? The only thing proven so far is that a private system does not work, assuming that you're interested in the idea of covering all (or even at least, most) Americans. If you are like ruveyn, then I suppose things are working out just fine.

Not "collapse" so much as just be gradually pushed aside. That's not a huge jump at all.


I'm not a right-winger, and I don't believe Obama is a socialist. I am fully aware of the fictional nature of 1984 (what's that got to do with this discussion, anyways?) and just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me.


I already gave some (admittedly vague) suggestions. I'm not going to give nitty-gritty specifics because such details require more in-depth analysis of logistical matters than either of us are equipped to do. And Cyanide has repeatedly contested your characterization of the current system as being a good example of a truly private one.

Last edited by Orwell on 06 Aug 2009, 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

As regards the big list of criticisms, each of these points is discussed and refuted at:

http://healthcarereformmyths.org/HealthcareReformMyths.php#A12

It's not a matter of debatable points as clear distortions with which to fear-monger.

A few examples:

PG 29 – lines 4-16 – Your HC is rationed.

PG 50, Section 152 – HC will be provided to ALL US residents, including non-citizens, legal or illegal.

It doesn't say that. It says that the government will conduct a study to see how well self-insurance works. If a company self insures, it might be able to save money (a good thing) - but if they act as their own insurance company and don't have enough money or go broke, they will leave the patient without coverage. So government will do a study to see how well it works and if there are problems, they might regulate such self insurance ... maybe establish required reserves or require that these programs be bonded.



It doesn't say that at all. That section is about 'annual limitations' which are set at $5000 a person or to $10,000 for a family per year. Annual limitations put a limit on co-pays and deductibles and other things paid for by the patient.... a good thing. Insurance policies from private companies have the same language today; the figure might be lower or higher, depending on what policy you have. But it is clear that only a liar or fool would interpret that as 'rationing.'




Good. Today the insurance companies decide what is covered and what isn't. Let's get the Surgeon General to head a group of doctors and economists to make a decision based on the public interest, not based on corporate profit.




Not much choice now, the insurance company makes that decision.



No. And on page 132, it says that people need to be "lawfully present in a State in the United States" to qualify for assistance in paying for a policy.


Well, you are zero for 5 ... no need to continue, it is clear that you (or who ever wrote what you cut and pasted) cannot read and interpret the bill. Of course, that doesn't stop you from having an opinion on it. It's safe to dismiss your post - it is a crock of BS.

Last edited by monty on 06 Aug 2009, 10:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.