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Sum up the meaning of life in one sentence.

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ruveyn
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26 Dec 2009, 10:43 am

Sand wrote:

According to accepted current cosmological theory the universe is a four dimensional structure. That means it exists in four dimensions, the fourth being time. Our sense of moving through time is an illusion. The future is all there. Our consciousnesses are merely moving within this preset structure. What is indeterminate is our ability to foresee the future and we can only guess at it from comprehending the four dimensional shapes of events and understanding how they existed in the past and how likely the same patterns will re-occur.


Possibly 10 or 11 dimensions. 4 dimensions is too small to allow for a unified account of gravity and electromagnetic force. Kaluza and Klein resorted to a five dimensional space, but that did not work out.

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26 Dec 2009, 10:57 am

Wormsign! The Spice must flow.

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26 Dec 2009, 11:08 am

ruveyn wrote:
Wormsign! The Spice must flow.

ruveyn


I know the reference is to "Dune" but I fail to get the message.



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26 Dec 2009, 11:22 am

SporadSpontan wrote:
haha! I think free will is illusionary as well - but probably not in the same way that you mean. And you did mention the Buddha.


Maybe so, in tickertaping the list of somewhat sizeable world religions.

SporadSpontan wrote:
I would say that our free will is permitted only within the range of our internal and external conditions - but according to buddhist belief these conditions are actually created by our own past actions. So it's a constant stream of 'free will' in that respect. I understand if that's too unproven to accept. But my motivations for choosing a particular view are governed by what I perceive is going to be of most use potentially. If I allow myself to think that everything is predetermined the effect would be a complacency that doesn't inspire me to explore whether the opposite is true.


And see, I won't claim to know what's outside my life, what sent me to this body - or if I even am truly anything separate from this body. I may have my guesses but that's about it. I agree at least that in this life, especially as a young child, its your environment and adults as well as other children reflecting on what your nervous system is, partly genetic and partly thus trained by your parents, and from other people's energies come your own and... the cycle just goes on. Keep in mind too that as young children we also don't have the complex selves that we do in adulthood that give the sense of self-knowledge and in reality that comes as a stabilizing reaction to our environments.



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26 Dec 2009, 11:39 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
SporadSpontan wrote:
haha! I think free will is illusionary as well - but probably not in the same way that you mean. And you did mention the Buddha.


Maybe so, in tickertaping the list of somewhat sizeable world religions.

SporadSpontan wrote:
I would say that our free will is permitted only within the range of our internal and external conditions - but according to buddhist belief these conditions are actually created by our own past actions. So it's a constant stream of 'free will' in that respect. I understand if that's too unproven to accept. But my motivations for choosing a particular view are governed by what I perceive is going to be of most use potentially. If I allow myself to think that everything is predetermined the effect would be a complacency that doesn't inspire me to explore whether the opposite is true.



And see, I won't claim to know what's outside my life, what sent me to this body - or if I even am truly anything separate from this body. I may have my guesses but that's about it. I agree at least that in this life, especially as a young child, its your environment and adults as well as other children reflecting on what your nervous system is, partly genetic and partly thus trained by your parents, and from other people's energies come your own and... the cycle just goes on. Keep in mind too that as young children we also don't have the complex selves that we do in adulthood that give the sense of self-knowledge and in reality that comes as a stabilizing reaction to our environments.


I won't claim to have any self-knowledge, even as an adult and my reaction to the environment is certainly not stabilising. But that could just be me! I'd also have to disagree with the idea that young children or even babies do not have complex selves. I think that if they have a brain then they may as well be as complicated as the rest of us. We may not remember our own processes of thought that occurred when we were young - but it doesn't mean we didn't have them. The evidence is that we were ever able to learn anything.

And please don't misinterpret my enthusiastic seeking of answers and suggest that I already claim to know them.


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26 Dec 2009, 1:58 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Magnus wrote:
The best laid plans of mice and men are often gone to waste.

-Robert Burns


Oft gang aglee. Burns wrote many of his poems in Scots dialect.

ruveyn


I translated it. That poem came to mind when I read your posts.


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26 Dec 2009, 4:19 pm

SporadSpontan wrote:
I won't claim to have any self-knowledge, even as an adult and my reaction to the environment is certainly not stabilising. But that could just be me! I'd also have to disagree with the idea that young children or even babies do not have complex selves.


Its not that they don't have the wiring for it, if anything they have far more neural connections that prune with age. The trouble is, aside from whatever genetic characteristics are containing the expression of their nervous system - they're tabula raza; there is no known self to them aside from the eyes they see out of and the emotional feel of their parents, their home, their toys, etc.. That can come with a rich emotional world but still a rich emotional world that's input driven just as much as in adulthood.



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26 Dec 2009, 9:17 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
SporadSpontan wrote:
I won't claim to have any self-knowledge, even as an adult and my reaction to the environment is certainly not stabilising. But that could just be me! I'd also have to disagree with the idea that young children or even babies do not have complex selves.


Its not that they don't have the wiring for it, if anything they have far more neural connections that prune with age. The trouble is, aside from whatever genetic characteristics are containing the expression of their nervous system - they're tabula raza; there is no known self to them aside from the eyes they see out of and the emotional feel of their parents, their home, their toys, etc.. That can come with a rich emotional world but still a rich emotional world that's input driven just as much as in adulthood.


From what I understand everything a young child or baby does is motivated by their instinctual notion of a self and fulfilling the needs of that self. It's why they feed from their mother's breast. It's not an intellectual knowledge if that's what you mean. But rather a basic inherent relating of their environment with how it impacts on their self. If a toy breaks they don't cry because it was a senseless act, or because they lament that there is one less toy in the world. When it breaks they cry because of their relationship of attachment with the toy. They have a sense of loss which is thoroughly dependent on a sense of ownership to begin with. That owner would be their self.


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26 Dec 2009, 10:10 pm

SporadSpontan wrote:
From what I understand everything a young child or baby does is motivated by their instinctual notion of a self and fulfilling the needs of that self. It's why they feed from their mother's breast. It's not an intellectual knowledge if that's what you mean. But rather a basic inherent relating of their environment with how it impacts on their self. If a toy breaks they don't cry because it was a senseless act, or because they lament that there is one less toy in the world. When it breaks they cry because of their relationship of attachment with the toy. They have a sense of loss which is thoroughly dependent on a sense of ownership to begin with. That owner would be their self.


I agree that what your saying you see there exists but - still no free will there. Genetic traits and the in utero effects are the most blatant aspects of what we don't have control over. A toddler playing with a toy and possessing it as their property is human behavior as much as his/her desire to play with those toys at all.



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26 Dec 2009, 10:47 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
SporadSpontan wrote:
From what I understand everything a young child or baby does is motivated by their instinctual notion of a self and fulfilling the needs of that self. It's why they feed from their mother's breast. It's not an intellectual knowledge if that's what you mean. But rather a basic inherent relating of their environment with how it impacts on their self. If a toy breaks they don't cry because it was a senseless act, or because they lament that there is one less toy in the world. When it breaks they cry because of their relationship of attachment with the toy. They have a sense of loss which is thoroughly dependent on a sense of ownership to begin with. That owner would be their self.


I agree that what your saying you see there exists but - still no free will there. Genetic traits and the in utero effects are the most blatant aspects of what we don't have control over. A toddler playing with a toy and possessing it as their property is human behavior as much as his/her desire to play with those toys at all.


I agree with the aspect of not being in control - this is precisely what buddhists are trying to free themselves from. And as I said in a previous post - the decisions we make are certainly limited by the scope of both our internal level of thought processing and external conditions. But this is not to say that a degree of decision-making, or free will does not exist.

It's a contradiction in terms to say that the will is free if it is dependent on certain factors, I know. So clarification is required here. The idea is that by continuing to make virtuous choices in both our actions and our thoughts - this progressively broadens our potential for total 'free will'. From a buddhist perspective it's the conditions that are our obstacle to complete freedom in our choices. And the conditions are created by our own non-virtuous actions which are entirely governed by our delusions. (Admittedly faith is required to accept this statement entirely.) By countering the delusions and becoming more ethical in our behaviour eventually sets us free.

And even though the above-mentioned position is unproven - I still think that it allows for more opportunity in discovery than a mere acceptance of an uncontrollable fate.


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26 Dec 2009, 10:59 pm

SporadSpontan wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
SporadSpontan wrote:
From what I understand everything a young child or baby does is motivated by their instinctual notion of a self and fulfilling the needs of that self. It's why they feed from their mother's breast. It's not an intellectual knowledge if that's what you mean. But rather a basic inherent relating of their environment with how it impacts on their self. If a toy breaks they don't cry because it was a senseless act, or because they lament that there is one less toy in the world. When it breaks they cry because of their relationship of attachment with the toy. They have a sense of loss which is thoroughly dependent on a sense of ownership to begin with. That owner would be their self.


I agree that what your saying you see there exists but - still no free will there. Genetic traits and the in utero effects are the most blatant aspects of what we don't have control over. A toddler playing with a toy and possessing it as their property is human behavior as much as his/her desire to play with those toys at all.


I agree with the aspect of not being in control - this is precisely what buddhists are trying to free themselves from. And as I said in a previous post - the decisions we make are certainly limited by the scope of both our internal level of thought processing and external conditions. But this is not to say that a degree of decision-making, or free will does not exist.

It's a contradiction in terms to say that the will is free if it is dependent on certain factors, I know. So clarification is required here. The idea is that by continuing to make virtuous choices in both our actions and our thoughts - this progressively broadens our potential for total 'free will'. From a buddhist perspective it's the conditions that are our obstacle to complete freedom in our choices. And the conditions are created by our own non-virtuous actions which are entirely governed by our delusions. (Admittedly faith is required to accept this statement entirely.) By countering the delusions and becoming more ethical in our behaviour eventually sets us free.

And even though the above-mentioned position is unproven - I still think that it allows for more opportunity in discovery than a mere acceptance of an uncontrollable fate.


I dunno. People seem to have the kinda dumb blind spot as far as free will is concerned. They don't get the point that not only you can't have free will, you don't wanta have free will. It's like they don't realize that free will is jumpin over a cliff. If you wanna have things come out the way you wanna have things come out you better damn well have your choices conform to the dictates of your best understanding of the consequences which means no free will. Period.



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27 Dec 2009, 2:03 am

Sand, There is no pervasion that just because free-will includes the possibility of jumping off a cliff that it doesn't also mean that much more worthwhile accomplishments can also be brought about by it.

And if all is futile what use is there in bothering to 'wanna have things come out' in a certain way? I would much rather think that my life has more purpose than that. Call it misguided if you (freely) will - but I find it at least entertaining to have the Freedom to explore this possibility for myself. You know, something like giving me something to do on a dull evening?

Does your usage of 'damn' to explain your 'well' imply some sort of religious assertion that bad things will happen if you don't do good things? lol


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27 Dec 2009, 2:27 am

SporadSpontan wrote:
Sand, There is no pervasion that just because free-will includes the possibility of jumping off a cliff that it doesn't also mean that much more worthwhile accomplishments can also be brought about by it.

And if all is futile what use is there in bothering to 'wanna have things come out' in a certain way? I would much rather think that my life has more purpose than that. Call it misguided if you (freely) will - but I find it at least entertaining to have the Freedom to explore this possibility for myself. You know, something like giving me something to do on a dull evening?

Does your usage of 'damn' to explain your 'well' imply some sort of religious assertion that bad things will happen if you don't do good things? lol


There is nothing futile in that everything is predetermined. What you seem not to grasp is that nothing in the universe is exempt from its basic laws. Your decisions are just as controlled by these laws as everything else and if you make a lousy decision that was predetermined by your lousy thinking processes. You cannot escape the basic laws. If you decide on futility and do nothing that was predetermined too.
I don't pay any attention to this. I just decide what I think right and make believe I have free will but I know different.

Unfortunately most expletives have religious or anal bases and I am stuck with the language. "Damn" is a mere emphatic adjective.



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27 Dec 2009, 3:02 am

Sand wrote:
SporadSpontan wrote:
Sand, There is no pervasion that just because free-will includes the possibility of jumping off a cliff that it doesn't also mean that much more worthwhile accomplishments can also be brought about by it.

And if all is futile what use is there in bothering to 'wanna have things come out' in a certain way? I would much rather think that my life has more purpose than that. Call it misguided if you (freely) will - but I find it at least entertaining to have the Freedom to explore this possibility for myself. You know, something like giving me something to do on a dull evening?

Does your usage of 'damn' to explain your 'well' imply some sort of religious assertion that bad things will happen if you don't do good things? lol


There is nothing futile in that everything is predetermined. What you seem not to grasp is that nothing in the universe is exempt from its basic laws. Your decisions are just as controlled by these laws as everything else and if you make a lousy decision that was predetermined by your lousy thinking processes. You cannot escape the basic laws. If you decide on futility and do nothing that was predetermined too.
I don't pay any attention to this. I just decide what I think right and make believe I have free will but I know different.

Unfortunately most expletives have religious or anal bases and I am stuck with the language. "Damn" is a mere emphatic adjective.


I knew that about the 'damn' thing - I was just making a joke. I'm sorry for your lack of a meaningful expletive to employ when the circumstances call for it. I'd imagine it could leave you rather unfulfilled or even frustrated.

That the universe is controlled by certain basic laws is something I'm very comfortable to accept. But I consider our decisions and these laws to exist in a completely dependent relationship. Take for example what you said above: 'If you make a lousy decision (then) that was predetermined by your lousy thinking process'. I totally agree with this statement. The decision itself (or in the example used - the thinking process that proceeded the decision) is the 'cause' aspect of the basic law of cause and effect.

So the decisions aren't controlled by the laws, but they are influenced by the effects of previous decisions. These effects are the conditions we find ourselves in.

Even if this theory doesn't turn out to be true on a large scale - there is no waste of time by choosing to make moral decisions because - if nothing else - our moral actions may at the very least prevent us from furthering the harm to other living beings. Something very worthwhile in my opinion.


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27 Dec 2009, 3:52 am

SporadSpontan wrote:
Sand wrote:
SporadSpontan wrote:
Sand, There is no pervasion that just because free-will includes the possibility of jumping off a cliff that it doesn't also mean that much more worthwhile accomplishments can also be brought about by it.

And if all is futile what use is there in bothering to 'wanna have things come out' in a certain way? I would much rather think that my life has more purpose than that. Call it misguided if you (freely) will - but I find it at least entertaining to have the Freedom to explore this possibility for myself. You know, something like giving me something to do on a dull evening?

Does your usage of 'damn' to explain your 'well' imply some sort of religious assertion that bad things will happen if you don't do good things? lol


There is nothing futile in that everything is predetermined. What you seem not to grasp is that nothing in the universe is exempt from its basic laws. Your decisions are just as controlled by these laws as everything else and if you make a lousy decision that was predetermined by your lousy thinking processes. You cannot escape the basic laws. If you decide on futility and do nothing that was predetermined too.
I don't pay any attention to this. I just decide what I think right and make believe I have free will but I know different.

Unfortunately most expletives have religious or anal bases and I am stuck with the language. "Damn" is a mere emphatic adjective.


I knew that about the 'damn' thing - I was just making a joke. I'm sorry for your lack of a meaningful expletive to employ when the circumstances call for it. I'd imagine it could leave you rather unfulfilled or even frustrated.

That the universe is controlled by certain basic laws is something I'm very comfortable to accept. But I consider our decisions and these laws to exist in a completely dependent relationship. Take for example what you said above: 'If you make a lousy decision (then) that was predetermined by your lousy thinking process'. I totally agree with this statement. The decision itself (or in the example used - the thinking process that proceeded the decision) is the 'cause' aspect of the basic law of cause and effect.

So the decisions aren't controlled by the laws, but they are influenced by the effects of previous decisions. These effects are the conditions we find ourselves in.

Even if this theory doesn't turn out to be true on a large scale - there is no waste of time by choosing to make moral decisions because - if nothing else - our moral actions may at the very least prevent us from furthering the harm to other living beings. Something very worthwhile in my opinion.


Somehow I get the feeling you don't get the picture. Where do you think your head is? Right! It's in the universe. And what is in that head? Right again! All those little neurons that go tickling each other so they have all these little orgasms that is your great big orgasm which is your decision. And all this tickling and excitement takes place in the same damned universe where everything a totally controlled. There you have it!



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27 Dec 2009, 5:34 am

Yes, I'm not getting the picture that's in your head. But that's your head. I agree that my head is in the universe. Where else would it be? I'm willing to speculate that yours is as well. I've already explained how I understand the control versus free-will thing. But if the neurons in my brain are having orgasms!? - I was totally unaware of that!! lol - I wish I was though!


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