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Blindspot149
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15 Aug 2010, 1:24 pm

Ferdinand wrote:

Atheists, riddle me this: if God doesn't exist, then how come he has a name?

Yeah. Thought so.

Hi Ferdinand. Good to see you here in the Philosophy room.

The square root of minus 1 does not exist; it is called an imaginary number

But it has a name 'i' or 'j' and it was absolutely necessary to invent it in order to create a branch of mathematics.

Imaginary numbers (as part of complex numbers) have essential applications in quantum mechanics and electromagnetism, amongst other things.

and as the saying goes;

if God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent HIM (too)

This doesn't mean that God does NOT exist, it's just an example of something that doesn't exist having a vital practical application and a NAME :wink:

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ruveyn
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15 Aug 2010, 7:35 pm

Ferdinand wrote:

Atheists, riddle me this: if God doesn't exist, then how come he has a name?

Yeah. Thought so.

The Tooth Fair does not exist and it has a name. Santa Clause does not exist and he has a name.

The largest prime number does not exist and it has a name "largest prime number".

etc. etc.

What a silly argument you have implied.

ruveyn

DenvrDave
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15 Aug 2010, 9:49 pm

Blindspot149 wrote:

The square root of minus 1 does not exist; it is called an imaginary number

But it has a name 'i' or 'j' and it was absolutely necessary to invent it in order to create a branch of mathematics.

Imaginary numbers (as part of complex numbers) have essential applications in quantum mechanics and electromagnetism, amongst other things.

I thought this was a very lucid explanation.

Orwell
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15 Aug 2010, 9:57 pm

Blindspot149 wrote:

The square root of -1 exists just as much as any of the so-called "real" numbers. "Imaginary" is a terrible misnomer.

Also, complex numbers were not "invented." They were discovered.

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Awesomelyglorious
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15 Aug 2010, 10:02 pm

Orwell wrote:

Blindspot149 wrote:

The square root of -1 exists just as much as any of the so-called "real" numbers. "Imaginary" is a terrible misnomer.

Also, complex numbers were not "invented." They were discovered.

What is the difference between invention and discovery though? Are you saying that there is a numerical reality that we reach if we have enough faith?

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15 Aug 2010, 10:12 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

What is the difference between invention and discovery though? Are you saying that there is a numerical reality that we reach if we have enough faith?

Invention is creating something novel that has never existed before. Discovery is finding something that was already there. We don't get to choose how abstract mathematical models behave; we cannot control them. This would suggest that we do not invent them. There is a transcendental nature to mathematics.

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greenblue
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15 Aug 2010, 10:39 pm

Orwell wrote:

I'm not sure about that, I would say that mathematics are based on reality and that it is a tool to measure reality but I doubt it exists independent of humans, I don't think it can be said that mathematics would exist if humans never existed, and I think it is considered a constructed language and mathematics as well as natural languages have evolved with time.

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greenblue
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15 Aug 2010, 10:55 pm

Ok, strident and not so strident atheists, riddle me this: if God doesn't exist, then how come the lake of fire has a name?

if God doesn't exist, how come the calvinist ontological argument?

Yeah. Thought so.

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Orwell
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15 Aug 2010, 11:01 pm

greenblue wrote:

and I think it is considered a constructed language and mathematics as well as natural languages have evolved with time.

Except that with natural languages, the use and meaning of words, and the proper usage of grammar, is purely a matter of convention. Mathematics does not "evolve" in the sense that previously known things chance. The Pythagorean theorem is true now; it was true in Ancient Greece; it will always be true. There have always been, and will always be, infinitely many primes. Natural language is mutable. Mathematical objects are not.

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Kjartan
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16 Aug 2010, 12:27 pm

Ferdinand wrote:

Atheists, riddle me this: if God doesn't exist, then how come he has a name?

Yeah. Thought so.

This argument is like a version of the classic medieval scholasticist 'Ontological Argument' ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_argument )

In brief

God = The greatest thing that exists
something that does exist is greater than something that does not exist
ergo God exists

Some people find this powerfully convincing, others find it to be casuist wordplay

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16 Aug 2010, 2:15 pm

Ferdinand wrote:

Atheists, riddle me this: if God doesn't exist, then how come he has a name?

Yeah. Thought so.

You are an idiot.

Now, go away.

Mutate
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16 Aug 2010, 2:19 pm

Ferdinand wrote:

MONKEY wrote:

Well then, what is that pile of papers stuck together with a cover over it titled "harry potter"? A leaflet?

It's not the word of Harry Potter. It's the word of J.K Rowling or whatever.

Duh.

The book says to believe harry. and the book is true because harry says so.

Awesomelyglorious
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16 Aug 2010, 7:02 pm

Orwell wrote:

Well, the issue is that mathematical models still cannot exist until people create them, which means that they have to be invented.

Now, to suggest that mathematical models exist before we create them is an issue where I demand to see evidence in favor of the idea. It is not as if absolute control is a necessary factor in invention. A gun only has one use: to send a piece of metal at a very high speed. This one use can have many applications. How is this so different from a mathematical model?

Finally, if math is transcendental, then how do we know math, and how do monkeys know math?

Awesomelyglorious
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16 Aug 2010, 7:05 pm

Orwell wrote:

You mean that in a hypothetical construct, the logical consistency of it does not change? Well, good for it, but how is this different than blueprints? I invoke NON-STANDARD MATHEMATICS!! ! (I don't know what I am invoking them for or why, but I just invoked them, so HA!!)

Zara
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16 Aug 2010, 7:19 pm

Ferdinand wrote:

Atheists, riddle me this: if God doesn't exist, then how come he has a name?

Yeah. Thought so.

Replace God with any other deity's name and try to answer your own question please. :rolleyes:

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