Does the government own your vagina?

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Vigilans
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11 Apr 2011, 3:55 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

A scraped piece of skin does not have a brain, furthermore the outer layer of your skin consists of dead and dying cells. The child in the womb is very much alive, unlike the skin scrapings.

What special experiental feelings does a second or third trimester Fetus have that a one week old Hamster doesn't?

You are mistaking experience for personhood. The fact someone whom is born blind will never know what the color green looks like, doesn't make them any less of a person. The child in the womb lacks experience, that does not mean they are not a person.

The thing of it is a lot of pro-abortion people try to deny the fact that the child is a person because they can't win the argument unless they dehumanize the child.

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JakobVirgil
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11 Apr 2011, 3:55 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

A scraped piece of skin does not have a brain, furthermore the outer layer of your skin consists of dead and dying cells. The child in the womb is very much alive, unlike the skin scrapings.

What special experiental feelings does a second or third trimester Fetus have that a one week old Hamster doesn't?

Does your whole conversational style hinge on the idea that the people you are talking to are trying to trick you?
You seem to have a theory of mind for anyone that disagrees with you that contains the kernal of guile.
Perhaps, some people are ok with abortion because they don't think fetuses are people?
I have a hard time figuring out peoples motives in real time (I do ok with a pencil and a pad of paper).
so I use the heuristic "people are trying to tell the truth flavored with their own bias."
it works for me a a rule of thumb.
my experiance has been that people get offended when you tell them they are liars.

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skafather84
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11 Apr 2011, 3:59 pm

Bethie wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

And plus that, the bible says life begins at birth....or, more specifically, when the newborn takes its first breath...so quit taking the word of crazy people that are making sh** up and claiming it came from your god when your own holy book says something different.

The irony of referencing a book commanding genocide and infanticide for justification of state and societal-controlled reproduction is quite humorous.

The farther you are on the religious scale, the less you comprehend irony. I think it's a matter of being able to grasp "advanced" concepts.

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Bethie
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11 Apr 2011, 3:59 pm

I'm okay with abortion because IT DOESN'T CAUSE SUFFERING. IT HELPS TO ELIMINATE IT.

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skafather84
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11 Apr 2011, 4:00 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

Does your whole conversational style hinge on the idea that the people you are talking to are trying to trick you?

Pretty much from what it seems....which is why I suggested he may be 5150.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5150_(Invo ... atric_hold)

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11 Apr 2011, 4:00 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Bethie wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

The irony of referencing a book commanding genocide and infanticide for justification of state and societal-controlled reproduction is quite humorous.

The farther you are on the religious scale, the less you comprehend irony. I think it's a matter of being able to grasp "advanced" concepts.

Much in the way Republicans often can't comprehend satire, as evidenced by how many of them like Stephen Colbert.

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11 Apr 2011, 4:04 pm

skafather84 wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Does your whole conversational style hinge on the idea that the people you are talking to are trying to trick you?

Pretty much from what it seems....which is why I suggested he may be 5150.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5150_(Invo ... atric_hold)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tijoo4wWpao[/youtube]

Quote:

The farther you are on the religious scale, the less you comprehend irony. I think it's a matter of being able to grasp "advanced" concepts.

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11 Apr 2011, 4:11 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

The blind, in many respects, have deeper compensatory experiences than many of the sighted do. So, in many respects, I don't think their consciousness is in any way diminshed. The fetus lacks significant experiental qualities, is utterly dependent on another's body for life, and really does lack a lot of important human neural qualities until a few moments after birth (so, in some sense, the bible is justified in saying that personhood starts after the first breath after birth).

Fetuses ≠ children

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11 Apr 2011, 5:00 pm

The point at which medical and nursing science can keep an organism alive independent of its gestational environment is the point at which that organism can be meaningfully described as a viable organism. For a human being, the youngest gestational age at which viability has been achieve is 21 weeks.

There's where I choose to draw my line.

It is an imprecise date, and it is likely to recede to some extent until we establish what the limit of viability is. But I believe it to be a purposive approach and to provide a reasoned distinction between the precedence of the mother's security of the person and the fetus' life.

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Vexcalibur
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11 Apr 2011, 5:13 pm

It does not seem so reasoned. The fetus would still need a host, whether machine or not, it does not change it.

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11 Apr 2011, 5:19 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:

It does not seem so reasoned. The fetus would still need a host, whether machine or not, it does not change it.

We don't require a machine to consent.

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Vexcalibur
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11 Apr 2011, 5:22 pm

Why does it matter? It does not, the focus of the discussion has shifted to when does person hood begin. Not about consent anymore.

Besides. Someone needs to pay for the machine. Who is it going to pay for it? An adult that wants the baby, I'd guess.

Jacoby wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

A scraped piece of skin is "human life". I don't care about what is or isn't considered "human life", I care about personhood. And fetuses are not people.

well that is your opinion, most people feel differently

Where are your statistics backing your claim that most people feel differently? Why does it matter? Popularity of argument does not make it righter.

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you don't feel differently if the mom want's the baby right? Still a "piece of skin" right?

Yes. The same thing. Just because I want a job at a gigacorporation, it doesn't mean I work for it.

Quote:

If you do, at least your consistent. A lot of folks I've talked to about abortion also believe it's a human life
but rationalize it's murder by saying they'd do it anyways or that we're better off. Usually the whole not wanting the government interfere in their lives doesn't really play a big role in their arguments. While I could sympathize with that viewpoint, they'd probably have no issue with the government interfering in their lives in just about every other way including paying for the dang abortion.

There is no need to rationalize anything. It is "human life" as in it lives and has human DNA, but we do not care about "human life" that much. We kill sperm all day long and many times intentionally through contraception. We kill many things with human DNA without much penalty, including tumors.

Personhood is a different matter, and I think that it is at least fair to say that something without even a brain shouldn't, ever, ever be considered a person and that is fact. After the development of the brain, you may begin to argue about personhood. But I think it makes most sense legally to use birth as a barrier because it is unambiguous.

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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 11 Apr 2011, 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Master_Pedant
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11 Apr 2011, 5:23 pm

There's one anti-abortionist on the net I read who thinks (I gues they mean personhood) life begins BEFORE conception. That has unfortunate self-satisfication implications.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8[/youtube]

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Vexcalibur
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11 Apr 2011, 5:26 pm

That has been the Catholic view of things. That is why they opposed condoms and still think they are only for extreme situations. At least they are consistent, drawing the line at conception is very arbitrary, the only thing the cell has is human DNA, but that's not a big deal.

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psychohist
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11 Apr 2011, 6:17 pm

Bethie wrote:

Much in the way Republicans often can't comprehend satire, as evidenced by how many of them like Stephen Colbert. :D

Indeed - and how Democrats can't comprehend satire, as evidence by how they don't get the humor in Ann Coulter's books.

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11 Apr 2011, 6:27 pm

psychohist wrote:

Bethie wrote:

Much in the way Republicans often can't comprehend satire, as evidenced by how many of them like Stephen Colbert.

Indeed - and how Democrats can't comprehend satire, as evidence by how they don't get the humor in Ann Coulter's books.

Oh, I'm an exception. I think she's genius.

Same with Dick Masterson (come on....the name says it all).

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