Got faith?

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Yes, as perceived.


Same here.


Yes, and that is what I know actual science to be.


Oops ...


Some religious sects, theistic or not (and including some within atheism, overall), do that, but not all.


Essentially, yes.


I think we already agree on this kind of answer there: Within the realm of pure physical science, there is none.


Never!

Last edited by leejosepho on 24 May 2011, 9:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

If there is a deity and it did create the natural laws then obviously it has the prerogative of uncreating them or, as in the acclaimed miracles, manipulating the universe so that the natural laws do not apply. The very definition of a natural law in the perspective of science is that it cannot not function. If t ceases to function then it is science's business to see how that happens and perhaps reproduce the effect to create a new and useful relationship in knowledge. But, as I pointed out, if natural laws are so malleable as to be twisted any which way, then natural law doesn't exist and there is only uncontrollable chaos.

The question "why" which religion poses carries with it the inevitable freight of intent which is chained to something that intends to do something with the universe. In other words teleology requires a plan. As you say, it is a knot that science is unconcerned to untangle. But one would think there would be some indication in the universe of the intent that would be discernible by observation. Even you must acknowledge that modern science in all its branches does a tremendous amount of all sorts of observation. And no intent is evident. That is the conflict.

Interesting question on the relationship between God and natural law. I tend to think of them as related.

And I knew dogma was an imperfect word for my point back a few pages, but for the context in which it was originally used, the transfer works.

Back to work.

I yam what I yam.

Most are not.

I know what I know.

Few others do.

They do it all the time. The special thing about the 1994 and 2011 ones is that the nuts preaching it had a great source of money to do adverts.

I don't see anything in the purported miracles that suggest that natural law had been nullified. Modern man scoffs at the idea of Jesus casting out demons because they dismiss the possibility of there being a spiritual realm. Nevertheless, if there is a spiritual realm that governs the natural realm, then the removal of a spirit that is causing an illness would be a cause of healing without changing natural law. Could this not have been what happened in the case that Leejosepho is so found of reporting?

I agree there is nothing observable in the natural world to indicate this but we do have clues to what the intent may be in the teachings of Jesus. You surprised me when you made [url=http:///www.wrongplanet.net/postp2370500.html#2370500]this[/url] post stating you didn't mind being associated with him. Though I am sure the comment was made in jest, I think there is some truth at the bottom of it. Unlike many atheists you don't seem to have a problem with his actual teachings and might even agree that the world would be a better place if more people took him seriously. Some might think that he should have given a physical sign, as the religious elite at the time kept demanding of him, but what if he had. Wouldn't that have drawn the wrong kind of people to him? If you need proof to take him seriously than you are thinking of yourself.

even if there is a "spiritual" realm i think the thought of "demons", wills intent on causing us harm.
is detrimental, as it moves responsibility away from people.

If I am hearing you there ...

The teaching of my own past says all spirits were once "good", but then one or more "rebelled" and thereafter came to be know as "bad" or "evil" ...

... and then we have the caricaturization of "angels" and "demons" sitting on our shoulders with us having to decide, to discern and/or to "choose" which to heed ...

... and within that kind of scenario, and at least after either being or becoming well-informed, we are ultimately (held?/deemed?/found?) responsible and accountable.

The concept of demons evilly intending to cause harm is a mere application of the same delusion of intention onto natural forces. Evil is a purely anthropomorphic insertion of intent into the mere progression of natural consequences, A tornado, a lightning strike, the impact of a huge meteor, malaria, termites, cancer, or whatever else damages humanity is nature working out cause and effect and there is no intent nor demons involved. That is pure superstitious nonsense.

Unless you are speaking negatively of alleged and/or so-called "acts of 'God'", I am not aware of any ill intent ever being assumed or imposed in relation to "natural forces".


I would tend to agree, at least in relation to "natural forces" ...

... but then any actual "demonic activity" would be a different matter altogether.

I have fairly well laid out my viewpoint and I am well aware that convincing anybody who is sold on the fantasies of "spirits" or other religious antiquated immaturity is completely futile. There is no doubt that placebos do have a real effect and religious placebos are a favorite remedy for many people. I am finished here.

I can respect that, and I can even tolerate your whatever-it-is such as "fantasies of 'spirits' or other religious antiquated immaturity".

Silly rhetorical question from me: Have you ever had an audible conversation with a demon during an exorcism?

I have.

Last edited by leejosepho on 24 May 2011, 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

that "demon" could just as well be a construct of the human mind, just as MPD has been shown to do at least in some cases.

Oops. I have just made an edit to note "audible" (to everyone present) in relation to that, and the things said definitely did not come from the mind of my younger sibling.

Edit: And in fact, I actually had a bit of conversation going with each of "them" at that time.

i can understand it must have been a very personal experience,
the human mind can do amazing things under odd circumstances and we know practically nothing about how it really works and as such i dont think one can discount anything when the human mind is involved.

i think once we understand the human brain we might have an answer to many things outside our current understanding in general.

We can let this sit on that for now.