What is the ultimate goal of the multicultural movement?

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hyperlexian
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21 Mar 2012, 11:54 am

TM wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

most islamic people who have immigrated into western countries are also integrated. perhaps you don't notice them... because they are integrated.

sometimes newer immigrants can take tometo become fully integrated into a community. generally, it takes a generation for it to really happen, so if your eyes are on recent immigrants they will appear to stand out. the children of muslim immigrants tend to be less distinct from the greater culture.

(donnie_darko and ReindeerRoger, i agree. and i fear for islamic people.)

Those who are integrated are most welcome, however given the reactionary wave sweeping both recent and non-recent immigrants in my country, I tend to disagree. The first wave was integrated as productive citizens perfectly, now we have both second and third generation immigrants that are in fact less integrated than their parents and grandparents.

There is a resurgence in conservativism amongst 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants which combined with the explosive influence of reactionary Imams this is a big problem. Go and read up on over representation in people getting benefits, in children not able to handle school because of not knowing the language, of entire areas of cities becoming ghettos, of native Norwegian children being bullied for eating pork and having blond hair at school and women threatened in the streets merely for being blond.

Rosenholm in Malmo is so dangerous now due to the ghetto situation that even the cops refuse to go in there without full riot gear.

those are not multicultural places. we are, so it's a different situation.

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Tequila
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21 Mar 2012, 11:58 am

hyperlexian wrote:

those are not multicultural places. we are, so it's a different situation.

"Multiculturalism" is often used as a euphemism to refer to segregated communities like we have here. We don't really mix much - we rarely talk with Muslims apart from if they're selling us something like takeaways or we see them in the supermarket. In parts of the North West it's reminiscent of places in Northern Ireland.

There is no multiculture in these places, just divided areas with divided attitudes as well as a lot of fear and racism (from both sides). Like the Army chap and his friends who sent disgusting racist abuse to a Pakistani-descent Muslim on Facespace the other week. Most people just try to get on with each other though.

TM
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21 Mar 2012, 12:54 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

TM wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

those are not multicultural places. we are, so it's a different situation.

What are not multicultural places? That would be sodding strange since politicians here have been carrying the multi-cultural torch since the early 70s and the countries in question have had the highest immigration of pretty much any country in the world.

Tequila
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21 Mar 2012, 12:57 pm

TM wrote:

Indeed - they claim the insane cultural experiment that we have is 'multicultural' when it's not, it's more often segregation.

Genuinely mixing with other people is absolutely fantastic and one can learn an awful lot. This is not happening.

hyperlexian
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21 Mar 2012, 1:06 pm

to both Tequila and TM, the United Kingdom is not considered multicultural, though some aspects of multiculturalism have been used. here in Canada we have legislated multiculturalism that permeates public policy and filters down to society. it is a different attitude altogether.

an example of how it filters down... in Edmonton, we have a multicultural festival called the Heritage Festival where hundreds of thousands of people converge to celebrate and learn about different cultures and nations. there's food, dancing, discussions, etc. basically people coming together to share and experience a slice of each other's lives.

you can actually see the difference (in general, though not 100%) on the forum if you talk to Canadian members.

Tequila, we don't have segregation - not sure where you are getting that bit of misinformation from.

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Tequila
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21 Mar 2012, 1:10 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

Tequila, we don't have segregation.

You might not have this in Canada (and everything seems much more relaxed there) but Europe is very different. It is quite segregated here.

I was referring to the UK and Europe - I should have said "what we have here".

TM
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21 Mar 2012, 1:13 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

How is multiculturalism legislated?

hyperlexian
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21 Mar 2012, 1:13 pm

Tequila wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

Tequila, we don't have segregation.

this is my point. we are multicultural and yet the cultures are relatively integrated.

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Tequila
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21 Mar 2012, 1:18 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

we are multicultural and yet the cultures are relatively integrated.

The thing is, here in Britain the politicians use the word "multicultural" to refer to the situation we have here where integration often isn't happening and communal divides are left to fester.

With Muslims, it often isn't happening (though it also does with some, and I gather that different parts of the country have different experiences). Up here it can be very bad but in some other places it's a bit better. With other groups, it's more positive and I can think of very little animus for many years against the Indian or Chinese communities, for instance. There is definitely problems with gun crime and the black community in London, but it doesn't really affect us so we don't see it so much.

There was very, very widespread (and strong) white disgust at the brutal murder of an Indian student in Manchester by racist white thugs for instance. The chap was murdered just days after I stopped at a hotel literally round the corner from where it happened.

hyperlexian
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21 Mar 2012, 1:50 pm

TM wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

How is multiculturalism legislated?

stolen from wikipedia

the Canadian Multiculturalism Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_M ... ralism_Act

apparently, also section 27 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (administered by the Department of Canadian Heritage). basically section 27 supports the Canadian value of multiculturalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_27 ... d_Freedoms

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TM
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21 Mar 2012, 1:58 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

TM wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

How is multiculturalism legislated?

So in other words a country is not promoting or in fact multicultural until it's stated explicitly in law?

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21 Mar 2012, 2:08 pm

i am not sure what you mean by that, TM. i don't know which came first - the checken or the egg. all i know is that (overall) it is working.

Tequila, that's the point. your country isn't technically multicultural, and i see a big difference in the integration of minorities. i don't know for sure how much our policies are responsible for the different situation here, but it appears to be working.

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TM
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21 Mar 2012, 2:17 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

I mean that if you require legislation in order to call a country multicultural or say that it follows a multicultural policy, then multiculturalism does not exist within the countries that are having problems due to government policies in regards to multiculturalism. It's not chicken and egg, it's circular.

hyperlexian
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21 Mar 2012, 2:23 pm

TM wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

it is not just the policies that are different, but the social treatment of different ethnicities in our country, which may or may not be because of legislation. so i don't know whether the legislation arose because our country was more multicultural to being with, or if the legislation changed our mindset (chicken vs egg).

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21 Mar 2012, 2:39 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

TM wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

Ok, now I understand what you meant. I think the core difference in the case of the US and Canada vs Europe is the much longer time Canada and the US have been "melting pots". There were some huge waves of immigration early on and there were definite issues in regards to those waves. I'm not to familiar with Canadian history, but I know that there were tensions during the mass immigration of the Irish, as recently as in the early 1900s there were

Quote:

Restriction of foreign immigration during the 1920s marked a significant change in U.S. policy. Immigration had soared in the late 19th century and peaked in the early 20th century. Between 1900 and 1915, for example, more than 13 million people came to the United States, with the preponderance from Southern and Eastern Europe. Many of these people were Jewish or Catholic, a fact that alarmed many older Americans who were predominately Anglo-Saxon and Protestant. Some resented the newcomers because they competed for low-wage jobs, others because the new immigrants maintained Old World customs, often lived in urban ethnic enclaves, and seemed to resist assimilation into the larger American culture.

Change out a few words and you essentially have Europe now.

DC
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21 Mar 2012, 3:20 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

most islamic people who have immigrated into western countries are also integrated. perhaps you don't notice them... because they are integrated.

sometimes newer immigrants can take tometo become fully integrated into a community. generally, it takes a generation for it to really happen, so if your eyes are on recent immigrants they will appear to stand out. the children of muslim immigrants tend to be less distinct from the greater culture.

(donnie_darko and ReindeerRoger, i agree. and i fear for islamic people.)

Perhaps this is true in Canada but I wouldn't know, after all I'm not Canadian, I've never been to Canada and I don't follow Canadian politics very closely (with exception of oil/climate issues)

However in Britain I'm afraid the exact opposite is true of Islam.

The original muslim immigrants were quite often coming to Britain from deeply unpleasant treatment at the hands of their fellow muslims, usually for being the wrong type of muslim or for disagreeing with the Iranian revolution etc etc

This meant they had a certain perspective on life and wariness of extremism.

Their children however have never known anything but Western style luxury and imagine Sharia governance to be a paradise by comparison, they also have access to the internet and lots of hardcore ideology.

Muslims on the whole in Britain are not integrated, they are segregated. Both physically and ideologically.

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