discussion about IQ tests

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I take NAC for that now.

I'm not inclined to take any result of such a test seriously. I have some interesting personal experiences with these tests. At one point, I've supposedly taken two formal tests, administered by a psychiatrist. One said I was 'below-average in intelligence', and one said I was intelectually gifted. Both were probably wrong. Another test said I had 'average intelligence', and that the ideal type of higher education for me would be vocational. I'm now going to university.

If all of these tests are so blatantly wrong, I see no reason to trust them. However, one thing I must credit them for is that they're much better than online tests, especially if those are trying to sell you something. Once, I got all answers on an online test wrong on purpose, and it said I had 'average intelligence'. If I had some answers correct, it said I was a genius and that I should definitely buy a certificate to prove that.

Given that the topic of discussion is "Discussion about IQ tests", and given that according to said IQ tests men are smarter than women, how is that an issue up for debate?

Whether or not IQ tests measure [Insert your subjective definition of intelligence that you neglected to tell anyone else in the thread] and so on, men score higher than women.

The accuracy of IQ tests, the applicability of IQ test scores in fields, the usefulness of what different tests measure and such are valid topics of discussion.

This is not me "dictating" what people can and cannot post about. I'm just pointing out that disputing that IQ tests show that men are smarter than women according to the tests, by attacking the tests is like attacking the weight bench because men on average can bench press more, because just lifting stuff isn't an accurate measurement of "strength".

also on topic is the fact that IQ tests are not necessarily very good at objectively measuring intelligence.

Putting aside the validity of the tests, the tests actually don't show that men as a group are smarter than women as a group. As somebody pointed earlier in the thread, men score in larger numbers at both ends of the bell curve. Tested men outnumber tested women at the stratospherically genius level, but also at the profoundly mentally ret*d level. If you are going to put everybody into only two groups (men/women), you don't get to clip out the profoundly ret*d men who mess up the "smarter than" argument.

Maybe, but I still say he just has to find his own Boswell to catalog and filter his utterances. I would agree that chopping off his appendages isn't terribly effective when arguing with him.

Actually men AS A GROUP outperform WOMEN AS A GROUP by between 3 and 5 points higher on average as I've documented with multiple sources earlier in the thread. Go back, read my source data, no ret*d men were clipped out.

@Hyperlexican how do you define intelligence? The definition famously used back in the late 1920s if I remember correctly was "Anything the IQ test measures"

In order to measure intelligence one first has to define it. What is intelligence? Good question. Do you have an answer. I don't

ruveyn

What is a Boswell?

The man who wrote down everything Samuel Johnson was supposed to have said.

ruveyn

Over the course of my time here at WP, I have amply demonstrated a fairly intimate level of familiarity with the subject matter that I discuss, and I have clearly demonstrated a willingness to carefully review hundreds of pages of material in order to arrive at an accurate conclusion. I usually understand subjects at a fairly extraordinary depth, and I am normally willing to delve into detail that most people would find to be frustrating or intimidating. Nobody who is actually familiar with my postings ought to have any doubt as to my familiarity with this subject.

Therefore, your assessment is ignorant...a crock of crap...nonsense...horse feathers...folderol. Essentially, I know what I am talking about, and you don't; therefore, I see nothing more to be gained from carrying on this discussion.

A five point difference in a measure of IQ is not a reliable method of determining whether or not someone is smarter than another person, it is just an indication that a group of individuals selected in a specific demographic scored higher on average than another group of individuals in a population on a test restricted to only certain areas of intelligence. No reputable source has suggested that those results are an indication that men are actually smarter than women.

If in a math class one scores a 100 every day for a month and another scores a 95 every day and one goes into a wood working class and scores an A on every project and the other scores a B on every project; that is influenced not only by innate intelligence but by if one was paying attention in math class that particular month and wood working class; whether one had problems at home with their family; if one was afforded breakfast, or whether one was looking forwards to talking to friends, thereby increasing their emotional intelligence more than math or woodworking intelligence. Now. if one scored a 100 and the other scored a 50, and one scored an A and the other scored an F, that would be a more likely indication of an innate difference in intelligence, but on the other hand it could be because one was being physically abused at home everyday.

Women have not held the same advantages in economics as Men although that gap is closing in some societies. Research shows that maternal ability to afford good education and nutrition for their children makes a difference in math scores for both males and females.

Standard IQ tests measure limited areas of crystalized and fluid intelligence. Standard IQ tests do not show that anyone is smarter than anyone else when there is only a difference of 5 points, it just shows per the research you cited that on average a demographic scored a higher score than another demographic on an IQ test that measures limited areas of intelligence.

And while there may still be differences in countries in areas of intelligence between the genders in the area of mathematics tested in standard intelligence testing, those differences have disappeared in the US, because of cultural changes, and there are many countries where females out perform males in the area of mathematics, per reference below.

The differences in the countries you cited may potentially be the result of cultural differences instead of innate differences, but in the US, Males and Females now score equally in the area of mathematics. And in Mexico in the largest study by far done per country, sampled below, Intelligent testing results between men and women were almost identical.

One could as easily suggests that this means that women and men are equally as smart, but that is not what it means; gender performance on IQ tests, differ for many more reasons other than innate intelligence. In twin studies inherent factors are suggested to only account for 55% for what is measured in IQ tests.

http://www.ams.org/notices/201201/rtx120100010p.pdf



And in addition, there is a body of evidence that suggests that an individual can increase performance on tests of fluid intelligence significantly within a matter of weeks, through training specific to fluid intelligence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/22/magazine/can-you-make-yourself-smarter.html?pagewanted=all

I don't dispute the research that says that women scored higher than men in one country or another in an IQ test by 5 points, but that offers little to no evidence of which gender is smarter than the other, or whether any individual in that study who scored 5 points higher than another individual is smarter. Environmental differences, even on a day to day basis, play too much of role to determine an objective judgement on which gender is smarter on a gender wide basis, determined by 5 points on a restricted measure of intelligence, or any individual that scored 5 points higher than another. No more than it does in Mexico where women and men score equal on tests for restricted areas of intelligence. Two many factors are at play to make a judgement on which gender is smarter, based on intelligence testing.

Last edited by aghogday on 03 May 2012, 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Johnson

Several of the sources I linked stated something akin to that, you can go look it up the links are a few pages back. You should also look into the requirements in mathematics and how they have changed in the last 30 years, because as far as I've noticed, the standards have slipped quite a significant amount in the US in those 30 years.

Women also regularly score better in tests where the test material is directly related to the material they've studied, in the case of mathematics, women tend to memorize formulas better. As DW_a_Mom touched upon as well, the education system has changed from being centered around how males learn, to being centered around how females learn, so that is yet another factor.

Also, as I've said, in this case it doesn't matter if differences are cultural, or societal, it just matters that they are.

I got 140 in my first IQ test*.

I do not think that's low.

I was quite glad. Uh ohh, 3% percentile! In your face! Hahaha!

But then, I grew up. And then, I figured... Most of the test did not really test my inherent intelligence, but rather the great practice I have had playing video games with puzzle themes.

At least in my case, I am pretty sure that my high IQ test score is the result of practice. If you can practice for a test, then I don't see how it could be a test of inherent intelligence at all.

In fact, I wonder if there is any point in testing inherent intelligence or specific skills like spatial. History is full of phycisists that suddenly decide to become painters and after 2 years of hesitating get good at it. I think the human brain is remarkable at learning and that nothing. I mean nothing is fixed in it. Is "intelligence" really something that can be diagnosed based on your genotype?

Soon we will have to admit that if Einstein took an IQ test at 10, he would have gotten the score of an idiot.

The IQ test is nothing but a bunch of cliche puzzle questions that you can practice to do well. Is there even a correlation between IQ and success?

* I got better scores in later attempts.

Think about it, if IQ was really worth it as a metrics, wouldn't companies actually use it as a requirement? When you look for people to hire, you don't base your decisions on pop quizzes or political ideals, but on what will give you money. Somehow experience greatly outweights your IQ or your aptitude test or whatever in regards to the requirements expressed by companies when hiring. And saying "My IQ is 140" in your resume would make you sound like a useless lunatic.

And while we are at it, have you looked at Mensa? Has your average Mensa member done anything more notable than "being a Mensa member"? Yet they seem to be the only organization that actually cares about IQ.

Just saying, if IQ was relevant and important, then were are the test centers that give you "IQ certification" so that you can confirm to companies that yes, you are quite pretty smart. Where is the checkbox: [ ] "My IQ is 130 or higher" In University admission forms?

Last edited by Vexcalibur on 03 May 2012, 5:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

nice piece of circular logic there.