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Wow...absolutely right.

Incidentally, I enjoy reading the OT. The thing that stumps many of us Christians is that opponents such as atheists appear to know more about the Bible than we do, and it usually just boils down to the fact that Christians miss that the quotes being used against them are entirely out-of-context. Sure, the conquest of Canaan was brutal for those already living there. But given what life was like in the ancient world, OT law was remarkably fair and merciful. Something else to consider is that the people who were wiped out in Canaan were just those who were actually present. YHWH promised to "drive them out," meaning most likely many of the inhabitants fled ahead of the Israelite invasion and survived elsewhere. It's not like they didn't have a choice. OT law also provided options for those who were lucky enough to make peace with the Israelites. But the real beauty of OT is the high standard it sets for administering lex talionis justice. It is essentially the foundation for modern-day justice systems all over the western world.

The wisdom literature and songs of the OT are likewise beautiful works for anyone, and I don't care if you're Jewish, Christian, or just "spiritual."

I've given a lot of thought to studying Talmud, but I'm afraid that might not happen for a long time. For one, I'm not interested in converting to Judaism. I think I could gain an insight to the background of my own religion by understanding the tradition of the Jews in the formative years of the Christian church. I'm also attracted to the mental and spiritual exercise of meditating on the Law and understanding it. What worries me is being unable to find a Jew willing to spend the time with me in it when I'm not interested in giving up Christianity. There are numerous Bible commentaries out there besides Talmud that I'm afraid will have to suffice for me. But I have considered Maimonides' Mishneh Torah.

You described one of the reasons I call out christians so much. They can't even be assed to learn anything about their holy book but they expect to pass laws from it that everyone has to follow.

...fair and merciful. Now that's a laugh, calling ANYTHING in the bible fair and merciful. Do you already know why it's so funny or would you like me to explain?

Also, no the justice system of the modern world is NOT based on anything biblical. Every heard of freedom of religion? Not believing in god is a death sentence according to the bible. So is being gay. So is disrespecting your parents. Under biblical law, if a woman gets raped as a virgin, the rapist pays the father 50 sheckles and they are then forced to marry him. Learn what you're talking about before spouting such nonsense.

And there's the archetypical anti-theist piping in. The thing is, it takes an open mind to be willing to understand that there might be cultural differences that lie in stark contrast to the world as we now know it. It's the absolute refusal of deaf ears to hear and closed minds to understand that makes even attempting some kind of response an utter waste of time.

Cultural differences do not explain how being blamed for the sins of two people during the origin of the human race is fair. Cultural differences do not make it okay to kill people in barbaric ways. That's like saying we don't understand what was going on in peoples heads during the Rwandan genocide so we should just believe it was fair and merciful for people to get hacked apart in the streets with machetes, something your god would have been over joyed to see.

Yes, but the problem is that you really aren't all that interested in any explanations. You're too preoccupied with hating Christians and rationalizing your hateful attitude by pulling your favorite Bible misquotes. You'll never even begin to understand what Jesus was all about if you can't release your grip on your own hateful prejudices.

Do you believe that the word "Atheist" and the word "Agnostic" are totally different from each other? I had a sudden curious urge to ask.

Maybe it's best that we don't forget how horrible the past was, lest we idealize it and think that our current time is bad by comparison to some golden age that never existed.

There is no "biblical law" as such-there are several legal codes, and plenty of stories that react to them. This is, again, a problem with context-people with a specific agenda will claim that "this quote proves that god hates x" or "see, biblical law says x, so we must ban it!" They obviously skipped the part in the NT where Jesus directly disobeyed the "law" that required him to stone someone, when challenged by people that it was in fact Mosaic law.



I would not go that far-they're as brutal as the cover of a metal album.



Considering that they appear the same by almost any measure to archeology, how sure are you that the Canaanites where not absorbed by the Israelites (if not the other way around)?

Personally, yes, I do. I catch myself using them interchangeably sometimes. The reason why I might have fallen into that habit is that there are two schools of atheistic thought--one that says "There is no God" and the other that says "I do not believe there is a God." The latter of the two I have difficulty accepting as legitimately atheist since it still allows for the possibility of God and is more properly an agnostic position that leans towards atheism.

I don't recall who coined the term--Sam Harris, maybe?--"anti-theist," but that's a neologism that seems more appropriate to me in describing many (not all, but many) adopting either atheistic/pseudo-atheistic position or agnostic position but also have the distinction of being vehemently anti-religion. It's an apt descriptor I chose in regard of abacacus, who I also suspect wears the same label with pride.

But as to two different words with two different meanings? Absolutely.

I am perfectly willing to accept an explanation that is reasonable, well supported (by logic, known historical facts, or both), and not dependant on less-than-reliable religious stories.

Your explanation essentially amounted to "cultural differences made it okay! You're just close minded!" I am NOT willing to accept that, because it has nothing behind it to make me think it could be the truth. There isn't enough substance there for me to even go off and do some of my own research to see if I'm wrong.

Also, I don't hate christians, I hate christianity. There is a difference.

Just noticed this post.

I do wear the anti-theist label with pride. I know I fit in to it quite well, and I am not ashamed of that.

I am wondering which atheist "school" you would put me in by the way (curiosity, I'd like to know how I come off on people):
I firmly believe that there is no god or gods, but I am also willing to be proved wrong and accept being wrong if such evidence should arise (however unlikely it may be).

I wish you would stop using the same argument against every Atheist. The reason you don't explain is because you do not have any logical and reasonable answers that would make any sense at all to an Atheist. your explanations exist purely in Faith. I challange you now to explain and answer this
"Cultural differences do not explain how being blamed for the sins of two people during the origin of the human race is fair. Cultural differences do not make it okay to kill people in barbaric ways. That's like saying we don't understand what was going on in peoples heads during the Rwandan genocide so we should just believe it was fair and merciful for people to get hacked apart in the streets with machetes, something your god would have been over joyed to see."

I don't think the culture thing means that it was literally okay to murder hundreds of people because they worshiped a golden calf. I think he means that they would write that because that's what they wrote back then-in Rwanda they literally hacked people to death, but again there's no archeological evidence that Moses was a war criminal.

People seem to debate this sort of thing not against each other, but against a favorite straw man. Most Christians don't read the OT and think "wow, I love the part where Moses is mad because his soldiers left some of the women and children alive." Most Atheists don't have a burning hatred of Christians.

As for God being overjoyed to see people killed in the streets, it would probably depend on who's doing the killing and who's being killed, which you might argue is the critical flaw in the OT's moral.

3'rd paragraph: I would argue that it doesn't matter who is being killed and who is doing the killing. God of peace and love, remember? Not some barbaric war god like Ares/Mars or any other of the vast number of non-christian deities (or even gods portrayal in Islam). I would further argue that it would be blatantly immoral to enjoy or promote murder, even for a deity, which lowers his podium quite a few notches from the "all perfect, all loving" deity that christians tend to try and sell him as.

2'nd paragraph: Point yours for the most part.

1'st paragraph: There is no archaeological evidence of plenty of biblical events, however if the bible is accepted as true then the history it contains must also be true, no? Which would mean that Moses was indeed a war criminal.

Same, I think christianity is BS, but that doesn't mean I hate christians. My family are christians but I still love them!

Try and guess how many lines there are between

You shall not murder.

and

Then he said to them, 'This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'

(Hint: Both are from Exodus)

But again, this does come back to practical matters-that is people using the OT God's intolerance of basically anything* as a justification for their own bigotry. If you look at the stories of the ancient Israelites and see "wow, these stories of hope are very inspirational" that's one thing. But if you read them and say "wow, God thinks that we should stone gays and adulterers and witches... shucks I hate all of those things too" then something is very, very wrong.

*(Even Moses wasn't up to his standards. Are you better than Moses?)