Bloody Sunday!

Page 8 of 16 [ 244 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 ... 16 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Mummy_of_Peanut
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 20 Feb 2011
Age: 53
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,564
Location: Bonnie Scotland

09 Jun 2012, 4:25 pm

Tequila wrote:

Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:

Please bear in mind, Joker, that you'll have trouble finding any actual Irish (or Northern Irish Catholic) people who side with the IRA.

They exist in Northern Ireland. They're called republicans.

What I meant was I don't think they're happy for the troubles to continue, are they? If there are any who are happy with the bombings going on, they are in a very small minority. Supporting republicanism does not equate to supporting the IRA, just the same as supporting loyalism does not equate to supporting the UVF.

_________________
"We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all we need to make us really happy is something to be enthusiatic about." Charles Kingsley

Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

09 Jun 2012, 4:40 pm

Joker wrote:

I am a outspoken irish Republican

If you think that murdering children and parishioners is worth your political goal, you're a sick, sick person.

Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:

What I meant was I don't think they're happy for the troubles to continue, are they?

Mainstream republicans are not, no. The ones who want the Troubles to continue are known as "dissident republicans". They've murdered two soldiers and two - Catholic - police officers and have set off numerous bombs and security alerts.

Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:

If there are any who are happy with the bombings going on, they are in a very small minority.

They can still create havoc though.

Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:

Supporting republicanism does not equate to supporting the IRA, just the same as supporting loyalism does not equate to supporting the UVF.

It often does in Northern Irish political discourse. Usually, it refers to supporting the activities of said organisation during the Troubles. But no, most loyalists and republicans aren't supporters of violence now.

Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

09 Jun 2012, 4:42 pm

Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:

Joker, I'm really not getting you at all.

Let's forget about the rights and wrongs of paramilitaries for a minute. I think they're wrong, but this post is not about that.

We have sectarianism here in Scotland, brought about because of the situation in Northern Ireland - we have a lot of immigration from Ireland and Northern Ireland here. So, I'm really familiar with how the connection between religion and political belief works in NI. A Catholic would traditionally be on the side of the republicans (the ones the IRA are 'fighting' for). A Protestant here would traditionally support the loyalists (the ones the UVF are 'fighting' for). Of course there are exceptions, but for Protestants in America to support the cause of the IRA (or to have republican leanings), whilst Catholics do not support it, is back to front. Is your Irish ancestry Protestant or has your religion come from some other part of Europe? If your Irish ancestor was Protestant, that would more than likely mean that they came from Northern Ireland (not necessarily, but it's the most likely scenario) and, being Protestant, they probably had British, not Irish ancestry. Therefore, they would probably be loyalist, in opposition to the IRA's cause.

BTW I have ancestors from both sides, a great-grandfather who was a Protestant from Belfast, who came to Scotland and married my great-grandmother, who was Catholic, with Irish parents.

The idiot doesn't know what he's talking about, TBH.

Let me just say that if Joker came out with the ill-informed nonsense that he does here in Northern Ireland, he would get an extremely hostile reaction.

LKL
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

09 Jun 2012, 4:48 pm

As an American of mostly-Irish descent, whose grandfather supported the IRA and sent money to Sinn Fein during the troubles, I have to say that I think that supporting the faction that now calls itself 'The Real IRA' is just asinine. There was a purpose behind the troubles, and that was to get some representation and rights for Catholics in North Ireland; continuing the violence now that that has been achieved is throwing away lives on the abstract concept of a line on a map.

edgewaters
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,427
Location: Ontario

09 Jun 2012, 4:52 pm

Joker wrote:

Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:

Joker wrote:

echinopsis wrote:

so many pages of partly well-researched, partly just dull fuss about whos to blame for people killing each other.. i never had anything against nationalism (just because i dont understand it doesnt mean i see anything wrong with it) and the troubles are an interesting topic for a political debate (when one bothers to analyse the sequence of historical events and their impacts), but actually taking sides in a conflict like this is like choosing one murderer over the other and personally i cant think of a justification for an "opinion" like that.

I still choose to side with the Irish on this issue.

Please bear in mind, Joker, that you'll have trouble finding any actual Irish (or Northern Irish Catholic) people who side with the IRA.

I know the Irish catholics will not but the proestants will.

I take it you're completely unfamiliar with the situation. The IRA claims to fight for the Irish Catholics, not the protestants. The Protestants are generally loyalist unionists, who support ties with the UK. Generally speaking Catholic = republican, Protestant = unionist.

The Protestants have their own group of thugs too, called the UVF (Ulster Volunteer Force). Or did, anyway. Their purpose is to supposedly fight against the IRA.

LKL
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

09 Jun 2012, 4:57 pm

The URF/UDF are/were just a bunch of jack-booted punks who bullied Catholics in the name of 'defense.' Deliberately stirring this s**t up again with some romantic idea of Irish Republicanism does no citizens, Catholic or Protestant, any good, but gives violent asshats on both sides excuses to be violent and evil.

Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

09 Jun 2012, 4:59 pm

LKL wrote:

There was a purpose behind the troubles, and that was to get some representation and rights for Catholics in North Ireland;

What rights were they missing post-1972? If they were missing any rights at all, it's because people from their community were trying to bomb the state out of existence.

And anyone who believes that the IRA was there to fight for civil rights for the Nationalist community is very naïve. Had the Terence O'Neill strand of Unionism not been toppled and the headcases been under control they, with the help of the British, would have brought civil rights to Northern Ireland's Catholics without all the bloodshed.

The IRA wanted to smash the British state in Northern Ireland and therefore tried to kill as many people as they could, both in the civil service (i.e. police, judges, army, politicians), those in the Protestant community as well as random terrorist attacks targeting people in England who had nothing to do with the Troubles.

Last edited by Tequila on 09 Jun 2012, 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

09 Jun 2012, 5:00 pm

edgewaters wrote:

The Protestants have their own group of thugs too, called the UVF (Ulster Volunteer Force). Or did, anyway. Their purpose is to supposedly fight against the IRA.

Yup - loyalists had two competing murder gangs of their own - UDA (which was amazingly legal up until 1992!) / UFF and the UVF as well as some smaller ones.

duncvis
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,642
Location: The valleys of green and grey

09 Jun 2012, 5:03 pm

Tequila wrote:

...as well as random terrorist attacks targeting people in England who had nothing to do with the Troubles.

Indeed. Growing up in the eighties, bomb scares were frequent. All the more senseless considering that most English towns and cities have sizable populations of Irish origin - there are more folk here with some Irish ancestry than there are folk still in Ireland. What did bombing the crap out of places like Manchester and Warrington achieve, other than creating bad feeling?

_________________
I'm usually smarter than this.

www.last.fm/user/nursethescreams <<my last.fm thingy

FOR THE HORDE!

LKL
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

09 Jun 2012, 5:06 pm

Tequila wrote:

LKL wrote:

There was a purpose behind the troubles, and that was to get some representation and rights for Catholics in North Ireland;

What rights were they missing post-1972? If they were missing any rights at all, it's because people from their community were trying to bomb the state out of existence.

And anyone who believes that the IRA was there to fight for civil rights for the Nationalist community is very naïve.

The IRA wanted to smash the British state in Northern Ireland and therefore tried to kill as many people as they could, both in the civil service (i.e. police, judges, army, politicians), those in the Protestant community as well as random terrorist attacks targeting people in England who had nothing to do with the Troubles.

The right to march peacefully down the street in protest without being shot en masse, for one; the right to not have a**holes dressed in orange marching through Catholic communities to rub in the English victory that happened eons ago, and enforce Catholic's second-class status. Look it up; this isn't rocket science. There were legitimate grievances then; though it was debatable whether the IRA's tactics were valid, they had the effect of getting Sinn Fein a place at the table that it would not have had without them.

Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

09 Jun 2012, 5:11 pm

LKL wrote:

The right to march peacefully down the street in protest without being shot en masse, for one;

So that necessitated murdering many more thousands of innocent people did it? If they wanted to protest against it, they should have done it peacefully - like the families did. You're not likely to get an apology from people you're trying to murder.

LKL wrote:

the right to not have a**holes dressed in orange marching through Catholic communities to rub in the English victory that happened eons ago

Did this happen post-1972? I can't understand what you might be thinking of, except perhaps what happened at Portadown.

LKL wrote:

There were legitimate grievances then.

Doesn't ever excuse a thirty-year murder campaign though.

Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

09 Jun 2012, 5:12 pm

duncvis wrote:

What did bombing the crap out of places like Manchester and Warrington achieve, other than creating bad feeling?

It told the British government that they could bring their 'war' to "the mainland", that it wasn't just "over there".

duncvis
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,642
Location: The valleys of green and grey

09 Jun 2012, 5:24 pm

Much good it did them though, it wasn't until the ceasefires and the Good Friday Agreement that the British government engaged with them in any meaningful sense.

_________________
I'm usually smarter than this.

www.last.fm/user/nursethescreams <<my last.fm thingy

FOR THE HORDE!

LKL
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

09 Jun 2012, 5:37 pm

Tequila wrote:

LKL wrote:

The right to march peacefully down the street in protest without being shot en masse, for one;

LKL wrote:

the right to not have a**holes dressed in orange marching through Catholic communities to rub in the English victory that happened eons ago

Did this happen post-1972? I can't understand what you might be thinking of, except perhaps what happened at Portadown.

LKL wrote:

There were legitimate grievances then.

Doesn't ever excuse a thirty-year murder campaign though.

Spoken like someone who has never been oppressed.

Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

09 Jun 2012, 5:49 pm

duncvis wrote:

Much good it did them though, it wasn't until the ceasefires and the Good Friday Agreement that the British government engaged with them in any meaningful sense.

Indeed.

Most of Sinn Féin's electoral popularity in Northern Ireland came after the Troubles had ended and they had officially renounced violence.

Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

09 Jun 2012, 5:51 pm

LKL wrote:

Spoken like someone who has never been oppressed.

I don't like the EU. If I felt significantly "oppressed" by it (as, say, the dissos do) should I go and try to kill my local EU-supporting MP?

Page 8 of 16 [ 244 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 ... 16 Next

Jump to:

Bloody Sunday! Post Reply New Topic

Bloody Sunday!