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Sinn Fein wants referendum on Irish unification

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YippySkippy
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03 Jul 2012, 11:35 am

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irish anglo relations have never viewed either as sub human


Though it may be unhealthy to fixate on the past, neither should we forget it. The fact is, the English absolutely did treat the Irish as sub-human. During the potato famine, a satirical article ("A Modest Proposal") suggested that the starving Irish should eat their own babies. Many people in England failed to recognize the piece as satire, and supported the idea.



DefinitelyKmart
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03 Jul 2012, 12:15 pm

I know that, but when i used the word subhuman, i guess i was using it in the sense of jews and nazi's untermensch sort of connotations, A couple of satirical pictures don't hold that we to the irish were like the nazis to the jews. Although i will admit we were by no means even decent and in the 19th century the extend of our imperial genocide is only just coming to light.



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03 Jul 2012, 1:51 pm

DefinitelyKmart wrote:
oh i get whats going on here, either jokers troll in badly. Or he actually thinks he's irish when he isn't at all, the latter seems more likely. tell me this, if the people of ni neglect they're irish roots, then your family did the whole hog and left ireland. you aren't anything to do with ireland just have some delusional idea that you are because of a surname, with half cooked facts and wishful thinking, irish anglo relations have never viewed either as sub human. But following jokers lead, i once met a man from palestine from now on i will support the palestinian cause...


I am Irish a Irish American.



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03 Jul 2012, 1:53 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
No, the English did at one point view the Irish as subhuman. The invasion of Ireland by Cromwell's forces led to the death of roughly half the population of Ireland. Granted, it was mostly through starvation, but there were a number of massacres (not to say the other side was completely innocent). Nevertheless, there was an attitude amongst the Parliamentarian forces in Ireland that was lacking in the English campaign. It was a callous disregard for life and an increased bloodlust. It's been argued that it's an early case of genocide, and I don't disagree.

Also, during the 19th century, at the height of the British empire, there were a great deal of pseudo- scientific theories going around about how nthe Irish were 'less evolved'. More ape-like:
Image

However, Joker doesn't know what he's talking about and he is all-American, with only Irish ancestry.


You would think that but I know. A lot about the irish history. And my family history as well. Which btw I have family living in Ireland. I AM Irish amnerican my great granparents where full blooded Irish. They immagrated to American so yes I am Irish.



Joker
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03 Jul 2012, 1:58 pm

DefinitelyKmart wrote:
I know that, but when i used the word subhuman, i guess i was using it in the sense of jews and nazi's untermensch sort of connotations, A couple of satirical pictures don't hold that we to the irish were like the nazis to the jews. Although i will admit we were by no means even decent and in the 19th century the extend of our imperial genocide is only just coming to light.


Oh you for get about slavery as well.



Tequila
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03 Jul 2012, 1:58 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
No, the English did at one point view the Irish as subhuman.


The elites also viewed lots of the Scottish and Welsh as subhuman as well - the Highland clearances anyone?



Last edited by Tequila on 03 Jul 2012, 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tequila
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03 Jul 2012, 2:01 pm

Joker wrote:
Oh you for get about slavery as well.


The United Kingdom was the first country to abolish slavery. The British abolished slavery in the entire British Empire in 1807; it took the Americans until 1865 to remove that piece of law. Racist laws and segregation continued right up until the 1960s in the United States. We in the UK have not had similar racist laws like that, although I'll grant you there was discrimination in Ireland.



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03 Jul 2012, 2:06 pm

Tequila wrote:
Joker wrote:
Oh you for get about slavery as well.


The United Kingdom was the first country to abolish slavery. The British abolished slavery in the entire British Empire in 1807; it took the Americans until 1865 to remove that piece of law. Racist laws and segregation continued right up until the 1960s in the United States. We in the UK have not had similar racist laws like that, although I'll grant you there was discrimination in Ireland.


the Irish were enslaved. Around the English Proclomation in the 17th Century. Inbetween 80,000 and 120,000 were sent to the Americas as slaves, including women and children. Many died due to disease, heat and hunger.



Tequila
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03 Jul 2012, 2:13 pm

Joker wrote:
I mean why? They where oppressed by those people.


Not all of them were. Have you never heard of Catholic Unionists? You must also forget that, hundreds of years ago, lots and lots of bad things happened to different people throughout the world. It wasn't just Irish people that were treated like dirt, but many Scots, Welsh and English were as well and also throughout the Empire. The British did awful things in India too (as well as many good things) and the Indians, in general, have a lot of good to say about us.

Joker wrote:
I mean why remain in the UK when historically. They viewed them as sub-human.


Because they probably have a very good job now? Because they realise that Britain has moved on, and it's fair towards them and their traditions? Because they are probably better looked after than many people in the rest of the UK (the rate of public spending in NI vastly outstrips that in England).

You forget that atrocities have been committed by both sides down the centuries. At some point, people need to let go.



DefinitelyKmart
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03 Jul 2012, 2:14 pm

Joker wrote:
DefinitelyKmart wrote:
I know that, but when i used the word subhuman, i guess i was using it in the sense of jews and nazi's untermensch sort of connotations, A couple of satirical pictures don't hold that we to the irish were like the nazis to the jews. Although i will admit we were by no means even decent and in the 19th century the extend of our imperial genocide is only just coming to light.


Oh you for get about slavery as well.

because you have some irish family doesn't make you irish whilst you live& born in the usa. its this thing that only applies to americans, where if your ancestors were from somewhere different, you put that nation in front of the word american, e.g. African american, which by the way partaking in that practice clarifies you are american. If my child is born in ireland he/she is irish, i am english, like wise if a irish person has a child here, they would be english, with a irish parent. How could someone who lives in america, born in america, ever truly be irish or identify with the irish?

Anyway slavery was going off in your country long after we stopped doing it, so i didn't mention that, because its not unique to the british empire.



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03 Jul 2012, 2:16 pm

DefinitelyKmart wrote:
Joker wrote:
DefinitelyKmart wrote:
I know that, but when i used the word subhuman, i guess i was using it in the sense of jews and nazi's untermensch sort of connotations, A couple of satirical pictures don't hold that we to the irish were like the nazis to the jews. Although i will admit we were by no means even decent and in the 19th century the extend of our imperial genocide is only just coming to light.


Oh you for get about slavery as well.

because you have some irish family doesn't make you irish whilst you live& born in the usa. its this thing that only applies to americans, where if your ancestors were from somewhere different, you put that nation in front of the word american, e.g. African american, which by the way partaking in that practice clarifies you are american. If my child is born in ireland he/she is irish, i am english, like wise if a irish person has a child here, they would be english, with a irish parent. How could someone who lives in america, born in america, ever truly be irish or identify with the irish?

Anyway slavery was going off in your country long after we stopped doing it, so i didn't mention that, because its not unique to the british empire.


My great granparents where Irish immagrants from Ireland that immagrated to America I am a Irish American and of Irish descent.



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03 Jul 2012, 2:17 pm

Joker wrote:
the Irish were enslaved. Around the English Proclomation in the 17th Century. Inbetween 80,000 and 120,000 were sent to the Americas as slaves, including women and children. Many died due to disease, heat and hunger.


Exactly. After the 1798 Rebellion, a lot of Irish people were sent to the U.S. as slaves. This is correct. However, the British abolished slavery shortly after. And the Americans were busy eradicating the Native Indian population around that time, so I think you Americans have some gaul.

What have the dreadful events of 400 years ago got to do with the events of today? Lots and lots of dreadful things happened centuries ago, in countries across the world. Continuing to dredge these things up won't bring them back.



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03 Jul 2012, 2:18 pm

Tequila wrote:
Joker wrote:
I mean why? They where oppressed by those people.


Not all of them were. Have you never heard of Catholic Unionists? You must also forget that, hundreds of years ago, lots and lots of bad things happened to different people throughout the world. It wasn't just Irish people that were treated like dirt, but many Scots, Welsh and English were as well and also throughout the Empire. The British did awful things in India too (as well as many good things) and the Indians, in general, have a lot of good to say about us.

Joker wrote:
I mean why remain in the UK when historically. They viewed them as sub-human.


Because they probably have a very good job now? Because they realise that Britain has moved on, and it's fair towards them and their traditions? Because they are probably better looked after than many people in the rest of the UK (the rate of public spending in NI vastly outstrips that in England).

You forget that atrocities have been committed by both sides down the centuries. At some point, people need to let go.


The economy is Ireland isn't that great. A lot of people have been having. Trouble finding a job my uncle who lives their. Lost his business diue to the poor economy.



Tequila
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03 Jul 2012, 2:18 pm

Joker wrote:
My great granparents where Irish immagrants from Ireland that immagrated to America I am a Irish American and of Irish descent.


"Irish Americans" are often treated with contempt in Ireland itself.



Tequila
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03 Jul 2012, 2:19 pm

Joker wrote:
A lot of people have been having. Trouble finding a job my uncle who lives their. Lost his business diue to the poor economy.


At least you can't blame the eeeeeeeevil Brits for that, hey!



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03 Jul 2012, 2:20 pm

Tequila wrote:
Joker wrote:
the Irish were enslaved. Around the English Proclomation in the 17th Century. Inbetween 80,000 and 120,000 were sent to the Americas as slaves, including women and children. Many died due to disease, heat and hunger.


Exactly. After the 1798 Rebellion, a lot of Irish people were sent to the U.S. as slaves. This is correct. However, the British abolished slavery shortly after. And the Americans were busy eradicating the Native Indian population around that time, so I think you Americans have some gaul.

What have the dreadful events of 400 years ago got to do with the events of today? Lots and lots of dreadful things happened centuries ago, in countries across the world. Continuing to dredge these things up won't bring them back.


I just am a fan of history. Plus all I really want to see. Is a UI or to meet Gerry Adams some day.