Pro-Israeli or Pro-Palestinian?

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Tim_Tex
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28 Jul 2012, 10:06 am

ruveyn wrote:

Tim_Tex wrote:

Pro-Israel here.

They should work on integrating the Palestinians into Israeli society, but the Palestinians have to do some work on their part as well. And Hamas and Hezbollah have to lay down their arms (although I feel that the situation in Syria is taking a toll on both groups).

How do you integrate people determined to destroy the Jewish presence in that area, into Israeli society?

The Palestinians desire no modus vivendi with the Israelis whatsoever. The Palestinians want the Jews dead or gone.

ruveyn

I thought only the militant ones were like that. Besides, there are Arabs who are Israeli citizens.

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SpiritBlooms
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28 Jul 2012, 10:29 am

I wanted to vote that I'm for BOTH, but you don't offer that option.

This seems like an ideal solution to me:

Vigilans wrote:

I am not for either. What I am for is a three state solution, whereby Israel and Palestine are separate states, and Jerusalem is also a separate entity with status comparable to San Marino, Monaco, Andorra, The Vatican, or other microstates. Palestinians and Israelis get their own countries, and Jerusalem is not occupied by either, but is accessible to all

Bun
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28 Jul 2012, 11:41 am

Tim_Tex wrote:

Bun wrote:

As someone who lives in Tel Aviv - no, we don't have parking spots.

Jeez, where do people park?

I've heard Tel Aviv is a very nice city.

Either finder's keepers, or you get screwed with pay per time parking lots.

And Tim_Tex - unrealistic solution for a number of reasons, but why would you think Palestinians would even want to integrate into Israel?

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HisDivineMajesty
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28 Jul 2012, 12:23 pm

Bun wrote:

And Tim_Tex - unrealistic solution for a number of reasons, but why would you think Palestinians would even want to integrate into Israel?

Free roaming. They can just walk everywhere and do anything - there's a lot of them, and a lot of them are prepared and willing to use violence, so the government of Israel could do very little if they were Israel's citizens. There wouldn't be enough material and police to keep half of them under control if Israel's army wasn't allowed to use lethal force against large groups of them. It would be chaos. Which is exactly why I think merging these countries would mean giving the Palestinians what they want. They'd have their own parallel society, in which selling land to Jews would probably still be punishable by death. But they'd be allowed to walk freely through Israel and do what they've been raised to do.

ruveyn
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28 Jul 2012, 12:26 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Tim_Tex wrote:

I thought only the militant ones were like that. Besides, there are Arabs who are Israeli citizens.

There are, but they are in very small number. The Palestinians from Gaza and Jordan want the Jews dead or gone. They are brought up from infancy to hate Jews.

ruveyn

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28 Jul 2012, 1:36 pm

HisDivineMajesty wrote:

Bun wrote:

And Tim_Tex - unrealistic solution for a number of reasons, but why would you think Palestinians would even want to integrate into Israel?

One state solution for both nations is one thing, erasing the Palestinians' identity (which I'm sure they would not want, no nation would) is another; That's why I asked - 'Merging them into Israel' sounds like they'd all be Israelies, instead of Israelies and Palestinians living together.

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ruveyn
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28 Jul 2012, 4:10 pm

Bun wrote:

The identity and culture of the Palestinian people is defined by their gut hatred of Jews. If Jews did not exist they would have no culture. What were the Palestinians under Otommon Turkish rule? They were nothing. Palestinians as such did not exist while the Turks ruled the country. It was only after Israel became a State that the Palestinian "people" came into existence.

ruveyn

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28 Jul 2012, 4:46 pm

ruveyn wrote:

That is historically not true. The original "United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine" called for separate Israeli and Arab states in Palestine. The Israelis accepted it, while the Arab Palestinians rejected it. The battle started from there.

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ruveyn
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28 Jul 2012, 5:32 pm

nominalist wrote:

Between the beginning of Ottoman Rule and say, 1890 what were the Palestinian people? Did they have a distinctive culture. Did they produce any recognizable art or literature. If so what was it. Give some samples and examples.. Palestinians did not start to identify themselves until there was a Zionist movement which started in the late 1890's As soon as Jews made claims to parts of the Holy Land you did not hear a boo or a peep from the "Palestinians".

ruveyn

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28 Jul 2012, 6:03 pm

ruveyn wrote:

How they identified themselves is beside the point. They lived in the land. The United Nations proposed a solution. Unfortunately, the Arab Palestinians rejected it.

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28 Jul 2012, 6:06 pm

nominalist wrote:

How they identified themselves is beside the point. They lived in the land. The United Nations proposed a solution. Unfortunately, the Arab Palestinians rejected it.

They did not self identify as a people until after the zionist movement.

Prior to that they subsisted on the land and did not add value either economic or cultural.

Which gets to the point: Palestinian identity is primarily negative: anti Jew and anti Zionist.

ruveyn

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28 Jul 2012, 6:47 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Which gets to the point: Palestinian identity is primarily negative: anti Jew and anti Zionist.

That is simply not true. Most Palestinians, like other people, just want to have a good life for themselves and their families. Some Palestinians are politically radical, not most.

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28 Jul 2012, 8:54 pm

I am pro they both destroying each other in means that do not affect the rest of us.

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28 Jul 2012, 9:05 pm

nominalist wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Which gets to the point: Palestinian identity is primarily negative: anti Jew and anti Zionist.

That is simply not true. Most Palestinians, like other people, just want to have a good life for themselves and their families. Some Palestinians are politically radical, not most.

Whether or not the Palestinians had existed prior to the arrival of Zionists is immaterial, as they certainly exist now.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

ruveyn
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29 Jul 2012, 6:30 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Whether or not the Palestinians had existed prior to the arrival of Zionists is immaterial, as they certainly exist now.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

That they do. There is a whole cluster of blown up supermarkets, restaurants and bus stops to show for it, too.

ruveyn

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29 Jul 2012, 12:24 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Whether or not the Palestinians had existed prior to the arrival of Zionists is immaterial, as they certainly exist now.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

That they do. There is a whole cluster of blown up supermarkets, restaurants and bus stops to show for it, too.

ruveyn

Yes, and there are millions of desperate, angry and frightened people who don't know what the future holds for them literally tomorrow. Sort of like how Jews of the past had experienced in the past.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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