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What to do about unemployment?
Produce More Crap 8%  8%  [ 4 ]
Raise Retirement Age 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Lower Retirement Age 4%  4%  [ 2 ]
Lower Minimum Wage 6%  6%  [ 3 ]
Raise Minimum Wage 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Government to hire more people 13%  13%  [ 6 ]
Negative Income Tax 10%  10%  [ 5 ]
Quantitative Easing 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Quantitative Tightening 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Start a Big War 17%  17%  [ 8 ]
Other (specify) 35%  35%  [ 17 ]
Total votes : 48

aussiebloke
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02 Sep 2012, 8:35 pm

marshall wrote:
aussiebloke wrote:
^^^^^

Are you talking about the earned income tax credit?

I don't know may be it's just me, just pay people properly period, if not why should a worker subsidise your ailing business ?


It's not the same thing as earned income tax credit. It would be a monthly check you could actually live off of. It would NOT be an idiotic "workfare" program giving businesses "free" unemployed workers to exploit. The community service requirement would have to be strictly non-profit charitable work and it would not be like a normal job with fixed hours. It would be flexible. Businesses wouldn't have to pay a minimum wage, but they still have to pay something significant or employees will choose to go elsewhere or just not work and live off the living allowance alone.


Yeah I'm waiting for that day here to "work for the dole" started in the late 90's only for charitable work .
It's on their mind thats for sure :wink:


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02 Sep 2012, 8:37 pm

marshall wrote:
I say have a minimum living allowance paid for by a consumption tax. It's straight wealth redistribution that conservatives will probably hate no matter what, but it will go to everyone (no means testing) so unlike traditional forms of welfare there is no cutoff once you do work and start earning additional income. Once that is in place there is no more need for a minimum wage and thus no burden on small business. The only means test could be that single adults and families would be required to submit a certain number of hours per month of documented community service per month while not working.


Why can't we minimize the impact money has on living in the first place? In my situation, the only real cure for unemployment is learning a useful skill set. Luckily, I have my situation planned out. But people who aren't as lucky have to pay for tuition on top of living expenses.

Is it prohibitively expensive to mass shelter people who need it?



marshall
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02 Sep 2012, 10:17 pm

MDD123 wrote:
marshall wrote:
I say have a minimum living allowance paid for by a consumption tax. It's straight wealth redistribution that conservatives will probably hate no matter what, but it will go to everyone (no means testing) so unlike traditional forms of welfare there is no cutoff once you do work and start earning additional income. Once that is in place there is no more need for a minimum wage and thus no burden on small business. The only means test could be that single adults and families would be required to submit a certain number of hours per month of documented community service per month while not working.


Why can't we minimize the impact money has on living in the first place? In my situation, the only real cure for unemployment is learning a useful skill set. Luckily, I have my situation planned out. But people who aren't as lucky have to pay for tuition on top of living expenses.

Is it prohibitively expensive to mass shelter people who need it?


I feel like the major problem in this day and age is not necessarily providing the physical accommodations for people who can't find work. If you grovel and beg you'll usually find someone willing to give you something to eat and a place to sleep. It's the psychological aspect that's terrible. People don't want to live in a mass shelter where there's no privacy or autonomy. That's why the long term unemployed homeless would rather just find a place to camp outside and hope no one harasses them. If high unemployment is going to become the new normal our culture needs to stop treating people who can't find work like the scum of the earth. It's also pretty pathetic that the right wants the unemployed to direct their rage at our president and worship and grovel at the feet of the "job creators" who are sitting on cash they don't know what to do with. With so many people treated like absolute s**t I feel like it's a miracle there aren't more mass shootings happening from unbalanced people who finally snap under all the pressure.



Last edited by marshall on 02 Sep 2012, 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

marshall
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02 Sep 2012, 10:40 pm

aussiebloke wrote:
marshall wrote:
aussiebloke wrote:
^^^^^

Are you talking about the earned income tax credit?

I don't know may be it's just me, just pay people properly period, if not why should a worker subsidise your ailing business ?


It's not the same thing as earned income tax credit. It would be a monthly check you could actually live off of. It would NOT be an idiotic "workfare" program giving businesses "free" unemployed workers to exploit. The community service requirement would have to be strictly non-profit charitable work and it would not be like a normal job with fixed hours. It would be flexible. Businesses wouldn't have to pay a minimum wage, but they still have to pay something significant or employees will choose to go elsewhere or just not work and live off the living allowance alone.


Yeah I'm waiting for that day here to "work for the dole" started in the late 90's only for charitable work .
It's on their mind thats for sure :wink:


It's happened in the UK. It seems the UK "torries" are even worse than our own yankee repugnicans.

Theoretically there wouldn't have to be a "cheritable work" condition on receiving "the dole" in my plan. I think Milton Friedman (of all people) had a similar idea with his negative income tax but people balked at the idea of encouraging people to sit around doing absolutely nothing. My proposition though is that in a civilized society some kind of job is a right to everyone, even if it's the equivalent of a minimum wage job that the government creates just to give people something to do. The idea would be to come up with projects that a lot of people might actually enjoy doing. Retired people often look for volunteer work to avoid becoming depressed. I think it's a myth that all humans are genetically inclined to not contribute to something if they are mentally healthy. Most people want some kind of work unless they are depressed, mentally ill, or addicted to alcohol/drugs.



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03 Sep 2012, 12:33 am

marshall wrote:

I feel like the major problem in this day and age is not necessarily providing the physical accommodations for people who can't find work. If you grovel and beg you'll usually find someone willing to give you something to eat and a place to sleep. It's the psychological aspect that's terrible. People don't want to live in a mass shelter where there's no privacy or autonomy. That's why the long term unemployed homeless would rather just find a place to camp outside and hope no one harasses them. If high unemployment is going to become the new normal our culture needs to stop treating people who can't find work like the scum of the earth. It's also pretty pathetic that the right wants the unemployed to direct their rage at our president and worship and grovel at the feet of the "job creators" who are sitting on cash they don't know what to do with. With so many people treated like absolute sh** I feel like it's a miracle there aren't more mass shootings happening from unbalanced people who finally snap under all the pressure.


I agree with most of what you're saying, there are some people out there who profited at everyone else's expense; and we should get our money's worth out of those individuals. I also think that the barriers to getting a post high school education are unreasonable and limiting our work force potential. But I don't think work should be given for the sake of providing a job.

Also, I'm sure we could mass house people who need it and provide enough privacy and security. I can't say I'd ever choose an option like that, but it's better than living in a tent. I'd much rather live in a cramped environment if I knew I could change my circumstances by finishing school.



Last edited by MDD123 on 03 Sep 2012, 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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03 Sep 2012, 11:15 am

There is the old Henry Ford ideal

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/03/opini ... h_20120903

Quote:
When Capitalists Cared

By HEDRICK SMITH

IN the rancorous debate over how to get the sluggish economy moving, we have forgotten the wisdom of Henry Ford. In 1914, not long after the Ford Motor Company came out with the Model T, Ford made the startling announcement that he would pay his workers the unheard-of wage of $5 a day.

Not only was it a matter of social justice, Ford wrote, but paying high wages was also smart business. When wages are low, uncertainty dogs the marketplace and growth is weak. But when pay is high and steady, Ford asserted, business is more secure because workers earn enough to become good customers. They can afford to buy Model Ts.

This is not to suggest that Ford single-handedly created the American middle class. But he was one of the first business leaders to articulate what economists call “the virtuous circle of growth”: well-paid workers generating consumer demand that in turn promotes business expansion and hiring. Other executives bought his logic, and just as important, strong unions fought for rising pay and good benefits in contracts like the 1950 “Treaty of Detroit” between General Motors and the United Auto Workers.

Riding the dynamics of the virtuous circle, America enjoyed its best period of sustained growth in the decades after World War II, from 1945 to 1973, even though income tax rates were far higher than today. It created not only unprecedented middle-class prosperity but also far greater economic equality than today.

The chief executives of the long postwar boom believed that business success and workers’ well-being ran in tandem.

Frank W. Abrams, chairman of Standard Oil of New Jersey, voiced the corporate mantra of “stakeholder capitalism”: the need to balance the interests of all the stakeholders in the corporate family. “The job of management,” he wrote, “is to maintain an equitable and working balance among the claims of the various directly affected interest groups,” which he defined as “stockholders, employees, customers and the public at large.”

Earl S. Willis, a manager of employee benefits at General Electric, declared that “the employee who can plan his economic future with reasonable certainty is an employer’s most productive asset.”

From 1948 to 1973, the productivity of all nonfarm workers nearly doubled, as did average hourly compensation. But things changed dramatically starting in the late 1970s. Although productivity increased by 80.1 percent from 1973 to 2011, average wages rose only 4.2 percent and hourly compensation (wages plus benefits) rose only 10 percent over that time, according to government data analyzed by the Economic Policy Institute.

At the same time, corporate profits were booming. In 2006, the year before the Great Recession began, corporate profits garnered the largest share of national income since 1942, while the share going to wages and salaries sank to the lowest level since 1929. In the recession’s aftermath, corporate profits have bounced back while middle-class incomes have stagnated.

Today the prevailing cut-to-the-bone business ethos means that a company like Caterpillar demands a wage freeze and lower health benefits from its workers, while posting record profits.

Globalization, including the rise of Asia, and technological innovation can’t explain all or even most of today’s gaping inequality; if they did, we would see in other advanced economies the same hyperconcentration of wealth and the same stagnation of middle-class wages as in the United States. But we don’t.

In Germany, still a manufacturing and export powerhouse, average hourly pay has risen five times faster since 1985 than in the United States. The secret of Germany’s success, says Klaus Kleinfeld, who ran the German electrical giant Siemens before taking over the American aluminum company Alcoa in 2008, is “the social contract: the willingness of business, labor and political leaders to put aside some of their differences and make agreements in the national interests.”

In short, German leaders have practiced stakeholder capitalism and followed the century-old wisdom of Henry Ford, while American business and political leaders have dismantled the dynamics of the “virtuous circle” in pursuit of downsizing, offshoring and short-term profit and big dividends for their investors.

Today, we are all paying the price for this shift. As Ford recognized, if average Americans do not have secure jobs with steady and rising pay, the economy will be sluggish. Since the early 1990s, we have been mired three times in “jobless recoveries.” It’s time for America’s business elites to step beyond political rhetoric about protecting wealthy “job creators” and grasp Ford’s insight: Give the middle class a better share of the nation’s economic gains, and the economy will grow faster. Our history shows that


Henry Ford would of course be tarred as a Socialist by today's Fox News crowd, but he raises some valid points.



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03 Sep 2012, 12:46 pm

MDD123 wrote:
marshall wrote:

I feel like the major problem in this day and age is not necessarily providing the physical accommodations for people who can't find work. If you grovel and beg you'll usually find someone willing to give you something to eat and a place to sleep. It's the psychological aspect that's terrible. People don't want to live in a mass shelter where there's no privacy or autonomy. That's why the long term unemployed homeless would rather just find a place to camp outside and hope no one harasses them. If high unemployment is going to become the new normal our culture needs to stop treating people who can't find work like the scum of the earth. It's also pretty pathetic that the right wants the unemployed to direct their rage at our president and worship and grovel at the feet of the "job creators" who are sitting on cash they don't know what to do with. With so many people treated like absolute sh** I feel like it's a miracle there aren't more mass shootings happening from unbalanced people who finally snap under all the pressure.


I agree with most of what you're saying, there are some people out there who profited at everyone else's expense; and we should get our money's worth out of those individuals. I also think that the barriers to getting a post high school education are unreasonable and limiting our work force potential. But I don't think work should be given for the sake of providing a job.

Also, I'm sure we could mass house people who need it and provide enough privacy and security. I can't say I'd ever choose an option like that, but it's better than living in a tent. I'd much rather live in a cramped environment if I knew I could change my circumstances by finishing school.


even in denmark where you are as good as guaranteed help in one form or another, there are people that choose a tent.

humans are hard to deal with, not that that is any excuse for not trying.


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03 Sep 2012, 6:43 pm

Those top hatted late 19th/ early 20 capitalists where not all bad at least they created jobs and industries and kept the money in their respective countries.

Compares well to those of today from " From Russia with money"

What a sick world we live in nobody will stand up to these bullies .


I prefer my billionaires to be like Buffet though his a little to squeaky clean ( I call him Mr Sheen ) for my liking if you know what I mean :wink:

Nobodys perfect :chin:


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Last edited by aussiebloke on 03 Sep 2012, 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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03 Sep 2012, 6:48 pm

In Germany, still a manufacturing and export powerhouse, average hourly pay has risen five times faster since 1985 than in the United States. The secret of Germany’s success, says Klaus Kleinfeld, who ran the German electrical giant Siemens before taking over the American aluminum company Alcoa in 2008, is “the social contract: the willingness of business, labor and political leaders to put aside some of their differences and make agreements in the national interests


Wow I'm lost for words 8O

They export more than the us to with 3.5 times the population.

Untill a few years ago even more than China!


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03 Sep 2012, 8:14 pm

Is it just me, this Germany sounds like a bit of an allright, :wink: my Italien delicatessen lady owner who I spoke to recently I "joked " that my Swiss/ French uncle once asked me "what does Australia make" the deli owner in a latin like manner puts her hands up "they make air" to whick I joked polluted air in fact , from all that coal dust. 8O

I need to accept Australia's economy will always be a high rise overlooking a quarry, :cry: not sure how long that strategy will work out for. Manufacturing jobs sound great for us aspies not to much SBS (sociable BS) more TKB (taking care of businness)

TKB with out the SBS :)


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04 Sep 2012, 8:23 pm

Great example about Germany. :D



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04 Sep 2012, 8:36 pm

AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote:
Great example about Germany. :D


Well I don't think it's rhetoric even in this country companies like Aldi pay above the awards, unlike the other evil supermarkets who short change their employees due to "over sights" .

Not that I'm saying Aldi is a beautiful butterfly in that regard I just like it as a shopper they don't play tricks on their shoppers like "market day specials" not knowing how long that day is 1,2 5? who knows also when the advertise they specify they dates and it's a nationwide price to . :)

(I could go on ) :oops:


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06 Sep 2012, 6:58 pm

aussiebloke wrote:
AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote:
Great example about Germany. :D


Well I don't think it's rhetoric even in this country companies like Aldi pay above the awards, unlike the other evil supermarkets who short change their employees due to "over sights" . . .

When I worked at Kroger back in the early '90s, any time between 1:53 and 2:08 counted as 2:00. And thus, you wouldn't get credit for coming in early. If you were late, they would yell at you. (And as an obvious aside, any management system based on yelling is most probably a mistake.)

The result was that I was clipped about 15 minutes each week.



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06 Sep 2012, 7:01 pm

^^^

I had to Google this "Kroger" It sounds German ya ?


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AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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06 Sep 2012, 7:03 pm

A grocery store chain I think based in Cincinnati, Ohio.

I worked at it in Houston Texas.

(maybe the cat who originally founded it was German, and he might have even been a good guy. Of course it inevitably went corporate)



Last edited by AardvarkGoodSwimmer on 06 Sep 2012, 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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06 Sep 2012, 7:03 pm

On jobs, I think we are handling the transition from a manufacturing economy to a post-manufacturing economy poorly.