Are the Muslims really the biggest threat . . .

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Tequila
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05 Sep 2012, 11:41 am

puddingmouse wrote:

Do you believe religious freedom also applies to people who are born Muslim and want to apostate themselves?

Good question. This question can be asked of a lot of Muslims (and Christians) who go on about religious freedom. That's the litmus test I think. If they fail it, we can stick them with all the other religious bigots out there.

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05 Sep 2012, 11:55 am

Tequila wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

Do you believe religious freedom also applies to people who are born Muslim and want to apostate themselves?

The sad thing is that the majority of Muslims scholars call on apostasy to be punished by either death or imprisonment until you 'repent'. People are told by their leaders that the intolerant interpretation of their scripture is the correct one.

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Tequila
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05 Sep 2012, 11:57 am

puddingmouse wrote:

The sad thing is that the majority of Muslims scholars call on apostasy to be punished by either death or imprisonment until you 'repent'.

Charming.

Can you repent when you are dead? That's a bit of a tricky one.*

* I know what you meant.

Cei
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05 Sep 2012, 2:58 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

Cei wrote:

Wow, I thought WrongPlanet was better than this. If you were asking if Islam was a threat, maybe that would kinda be reasonable in a way, at least then you're disagreeing with the religion instead of actual people. Islamism being a threat, no problem there. But Muslims being a threat to the modern world? Not Al-Qaida or the Taliban or even Iran, but all Muslims? Yeah, because obviously I spend my weekends constructing explosives and stoning adulterers, right? Being a decent American citizen who obeys the law and thinks people have the right to freedom of religion is just a ruse, I suppose. After all, obviously Osama bin Laden is a perfect representation of millions of people. But there's no way anyone could suggest Joseph Kony had anything to do with normal Christians, for example. No no no, that would be intolerant. :roll:

Grow up. There will always be nutcases willing to use any religion as an justification for evil, please don't judge the rest of us by their actions.

Do you believe religious freedom also applies to people who are born Muslim and want to apostate themselves?

Yes, I do. I don't think there's any situation in the modern world that the shari'ah punishment is applicable to, and in general, the rule against compulsion still applies. That is, no one can be forced to be Muslim, regardless of what religion they were raised to believe.

Tequila
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05 Sep 2012, 5:24 pm

Cei wrote:

That is, no one can be forced to be Muslim, regardless of what religion they were raised to believe.

I disagree.

You can be ruled over by people who violently believe in a certain doctrine (not necessarily Islam) and who will kill anyone who tries to dissent (in any way, either orally, through gestures, clothing, music, et al), or to question, or tries to do their own research, or to leave its grip.

So Islam (or Christianity) can be imposed upon people.

If I put on my car stereo and put my music on, which one person in the car hates, are they being forced to listen to it even if they can "tune it out"? Even though they can still hear it and they still hate my choice of music?

What would you call the situation that holds in much of Afghanistan? Or Saudi Arabia? (I'm aware that liberal Muslims probably get Saudi Arabia thrown at them a bit, a bit like a lot of Jews get stick from anti-Israel/anti-Semitic people, but it's worth asking.)

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05 Sep 2012, 5:48 pm

Cei wrote:

What's different about the modern world that makes the punishment not applicable, then?

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thomas81
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05 Sep 2012, 6:38 pm

piroflip wrote:

Tequila wrote:

Islam would be fairly easy and painless to deal with if the politicians weren't so gutless. It certainly wouldn't require atrocities or entire ethnic groups being deported or murdered - well, not on the part of the West anyway. If the people were allowed to decide their own destiny in Europe Islam would immediately lose.

It's the political class and the media that are feeding Islam, not the people. Islam is about as welcome to many in the West as any other invasion.

I agree with every word.
In the UK our spineless politicians are turning our country into an islamic cess pit.

NOBODY wants muslims in the UK except the traitor politicians and a few bleeding heart do gooders.
99% of the population is sick of none stop muslim immigration.

I would put every single one of them on a leaky boat first thing in the morning and good riddance.

.

Will it take a muslim surgeon to perform a life saving operation on you before you stop jabbering on like a total berk?

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05 Sep 2012, 7:43 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

Cei wrote:

What's different about the modern world that makes the punishment not applicable, then?

do christians still kill entire villages to steal the virgins?

no(at least not int he west that i know of), well theres your answer.

life happens, as time passes the behaviors in a religion that no longer hold relevance (for an example integrated muslims in the west) it simply doesnt happen, even if the scriptural evidence is still there.

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05 Sep 2012, 8:03 pm

Oodain wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

Cei wrote:

What's different about the modern world that makes the punishment not applicable, then?

This is different. There's nothing in Christianity that says to kill entire villages to steal virgins and the very early Christians didn't do this. The hadiths have within them punishments for apostasy. Most modern Islamic scholars uphold these. Most countries under national Sharia law enforce them. The world does change, but scripture doesn't. This is a pertinent question to ask. What is it about the modern world that means our interpretation of scripture needs to change (particularly this part of it?)

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Oodain
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05 Sep 2012, 8:16 pm

judges 21:7-23

Quote:

7 "How can we provide wives for those who are left, since we have taken an oath by the LORD not to give them any of our daughters in marriage?" 8 Then they asked, "Which one of the tribes of Israel failed to assemble before the LORD at Mizpah?" They discovered that no one from Jabesh Gilead had come to the camp for the assembly. 9 For when they counted the people, they found that none of the people of Jabesh Gilead were there. 10 So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. 11 "This is what you are to do," they said. "Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin." 12 They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan. 13

what changes is however a quite good question.

personally i think what changed in many societies was that we started laying more wheight in rationality than religion,
thus people are more inclined to question religion to begin with and less inclined to commit acts of violence dicated through it.

that of course is a gross oversimplification, there are plenty of factors, from a fair and functional court system that negates the need for regulating punishment through religion to the modern ethical framework we have constructed(something that requires education to be effective)

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puddingmouse
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05 Sep 2012, 8:33 pm

^Those people are Jews (I know early Christianity was a form of Judaism) and it's a one-off occurrence. There is no command from Jesus to do such a thing. And yes, before you start, I am aware that Jesus said that he had not come to destroy the old laws. But, I hardly think your example qualifies as a 'law'.

I'm not a Christian or even a fan of Christianity, but I was raised in that tradition, so I have a certain respect for the structure of the Bible and how it is interpreted by modern Christians. When people quote Old Testament atrocities like that, they misrepresent the religion. In the same vein, I was interested in how Islam is interpreted by modern Muslims. I want to know why they disagree with scholars.

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Oodain
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05 Sep 2012, 8:57 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

one misrepresents the modern religion, but in this case you were talking about a religion over the course history.

i also think that there is just as good a chance that much of what people use against islam is of the exact same nature.

so in essence the argument is excactly the same for islam and christianity

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Cei
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06 Sep 2012, 2:45 am

Tequila wrote:

Cei wrote:

That is, no one can be forced to be Muslim, regardless of what religion they were raised to believe.

Okay, bad phrasing. That should have been may, not can. It is possible, but should not be happening.

puddingmouse wrote:

Cei wrote:

What's different about the modern world that makes the punishment not applicable, then?

Because I don't believe it was intended that anyone who leaves the religion should be killed, only if they're just "converting" to do something like steal or spy. That's not applicable anymore because it's no longer in the context of warfare. Imagine if someone could move to another country, commit all sorts of crimes and sabotage there, then skip back across the border and say "I'm not one of you anymore, your laws don't apply to me, you can't do anything about it, hah", then keep doing the same thing over and over. Do you just leave them alone?

puddingmouse
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06 Sep 2012, 7:31 am

Cei wrote:

I get it now, thanks.

@Oodain. No, I still think the comparison between the two texts in Christianity and Islam isn't applicable here. It's different because much of the 'Islamic world' still interprets scripture that way. Muslims like Cei are the exception on a global scale, not the rule.

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JakobVirgil
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06 Sep 2012, 10:51 am

puddingmouse wrote:

Cei wrote:

The majority of Muslims live in south-east Asia/ East Asia 1,005,507,000 of the 1,619,314,000 muslims in the world.
They are mostly Sufis and hold almost none of the beliefs ascribed to Muslims here.
What we are really talking about is the Saudis not Islam at all.

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puddingmouse
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06 Sep 2012, 10:52 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

Cei wrote:

And the Iranians, Egyptians, Pakistanis, Afghans, Bangladeshis, Somalis, Nigerians...

Also, most Muslims (75-90%) are Sunni, not Sufi.

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