Question for Zionists

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17 Nov 2012, 8:44 pm

I'd like to say that the original posters goes too far from time to time and is somewhat distasteful in expressing his views, but the rank hypocrisy of Tequila is unbearable. I mean, regularly whining when people call his beloved anti-immigrant UKIP "racist", yet playing the anti-semitism card so frequently in Israeli-Palestinian conflict threads?

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Kurgan
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17 Nov 2012, 8:45 pm

thomas81 wrote:

GGPViper wrote:

blackelk wrote:

This. The amount of pure vitriol that Israel attracts boggles my mind. Antisemitism is so prominent on the internet as well. I have been on a plethora of forums about different interests, from sports to martial arts to psychology to video games, and the obsession with Israel was on every one of them. Of course, political forums are the worst for it. I honestly don't get it, and can't attribute it to anything but bigotry. It seems like something that both the extreme right and extreme left can agree on: Israel is the worst. When it is actually peanuts to other injustices going on in the world.

Possible reasons:

1. Jews are (in general) very successful (economically, and most definitely scientifically). Many people dislike people who are more successful than they are.
2. Jews are disproportionally active in the financial sector because both Christians and Muslims were historically too stupid to appreciate the value of borrowing and lending. Since a lot of people only recognize the value of banks when banks fail, they are likely to blame it on the Jews.
3. Jews are a small minority with little electoral impact outside Israel, so harassing them is fairly costless.
4. Anti-Semitism is an integral part of Islam.

And...

5. After the Holocaust, Anti-Semitism is no longer universally accepted. Anti-Semites thus need a way to express their hatred of Jews in a political correct manner.... Hmm... Hmm... Oh, I know! Anti-Zionism.

Or 6. People genuinely dislike the deal that the Palestinians have been given?

For some reason that cause is never apparent to the Israel hawks.

Palestine never existed. Thus, the deal was pretty reasonable.

The jews got back a small fraction (slightly bigger than Kuwait or Taiwan) of what was once theirs. Many Arabs voluntarily left to one of the many countries in the Middle East with a similar culture. While there's only one culturaly jewish country, there are 22 Arab countries.

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17 Nov 2012, 8:48 pm

Kurgan wrote:

Palestine never existed. Thus, the deal was pretty reasonable.

Yeah, i've heard more or less the same rationale used against Irish unity as well (a united Ireland never existed, blah blah) effectively it is BS because whatever the country was called, it remained homeland to a indigenous majority arab group who identified as in this case, Palestinians.

It doesn't change what the Israelis did nor does it make them any less culpible for their actions.

Lets put it this way, Somalia to the best of my knowledge is still in a position of stateless anarchy, if some country was to invade Somalia tomorrow and annex it at the expense of the indigenous populace, would they be morally justified?

Last edited by thomas81 on 17 Nov 2012, 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kurgan
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17 Nov 2012, 8:49 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Tequila wrote:

GGPViper wrote:

*Ahem*. There is nothing *new* about anti-Semitism in Islam.

I fully know and understand that. I'm referring to the present demonisation of Israel, where it's found most strongest. The far-left are fairly new to the table with antisemitism, but the far-right and Islam have always hated Jews.

If the far left are anti semites, explain to me why so much of the far left criticism of Israel comes from Jews?

You wont find much anti semitism on the left, but what you find on the right is this transparent and aggressive attempt to confuse anti semitism with criticism of Israel. The reason is obvious; they want all opposition to Israel branded as anti semitic and effectively silenced.

Israel is a secular state, and has nothing to do with theological Judaism. It is a religion turned into nationalism which is contrary to Jewish principles.

Writing "boycott Israel" in the search field on the website of Norway's largest socialist party, will give you 168 articles written by one of their politicians in favour of a boycott. Writing "boycott Saudi-Arabia", "boycott Cuba", "boycott North-Korea" or "boycott Iran", won't give you any articles on economic sanctions.

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17 Nov 2012, 8:52 pm

Kurgan wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Tequila wrote:

GGPViper wrote:

*Ahem*. There is nothing *new* about anti-Semitism in Islam.

All that proves is that the right wing has a hawkish sympathy and mandate towards Israels position in the middle east as the dominant power. Opposition to Israel has nothing to do with anti semitism.

Have you considered that the international community is genuinely appalled by how Israel is behaving?

Do you need me to link a list of Jewish individuals and groups also opposed to Israel?

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17 Nov 2012, 9:13 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Tequila wrote:

GGPViper wrote:

*Ahem*. There is nothing *new* about anti-Semitism in Islam.

Quote:

All that proves is that the right wing has a hawkish sympathy and mandate towards Israels position in the middle east as the dominant power. Opposition to Israel has nothing to do with anti semitism.

Unless the socialists are more concerned over more severe issues (eg. the situation in Syria or the lack of freedom of speech in China), then they are indeed anti-semitic.

Quote:

Have you considered that the international community is genuinely appalled by how Israel is behaving?

The international community is not Iran, Venezuela and the Arab states. The UN is far more concerned with the situation on the Korean peninsula, the human rights in Iran or the revolt in the Arab world--which of course are more important issues.

Quote:

Do you need me to link a list of Jewish individuals and groups also opposed to Israel?

I'll gladly counter it with muslims who are pro-Israel.

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17 Nov 2012, 9:17 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

abacacus wrote:

Equal citizens? Israeli citizens tend to be incredibly racist, and the government isn't much better. Arabs in Israel are equal citizens in the same way black people were equal in America in the forties. Technically equal, realistically not even close.

Uh there are Muslims whom are government officials in Israel, there are even judges that are Muslim. I don't recall African Americans being members of the judiciary in the United States back in the 1940s...

You really need to learn to stop drinking the left-wing kool-aid.

Congratulations, you can take a simile (or would that be a metaphor? Iunno.) literally. Perhaps you'd like a trophy?

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17 Nov 2012, 9:19 pm

GGPViper wrote:

Actually, Israel is safer now than it has been for many years. Terrorist attacks in Israel have plummeted since the construction of the Israeli West Bank barrier and the Iron Dome is drastically reducing the effectiveness of rockets fired from Gaza.

So why leave? And furthermore, why leave to appease an ideology which is almost indistinguishable from al-Qaeda, Taliban, al-Shaabab and Boko Haram?

In other words: Your scenario is still a pipe dream.

So now's a good time to end our support since they've got it under control.

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17 Nov 2012, 9:50 pm

Kurgan wrote:

Unless the socialists are more concerned over more severe issues (eg. the situation in Syria or the lack of freedom of speech in China), then they are indeed anti-semitic.

The power of institutions, companies and governments based in Europe, the United States and their allied states are far more threatening to the cause of Socialism due to their overall political leverage. That is why Socialists tend to focus on those. Who'dve thunk it?

Kurgan wrote:

Not only those nations support Palestinian self determination. The caption of this image is "countries which acknowledge the state of Palestine" (green is supports)

Kurgan wrote:

I'll gladly counter it with muslims who are pro-Israel.

I don't doubt that you could. They are a bunch of Sycophants and political opportunists though.

Many arab nations are indifferent to the Palestine plight to the point of being pro-Israel. More often than not due to domestic political expediency and matters of self interest due to diplomacy with Israel's allies. Less to do with any specific moral stance on either Palestine or Israel's right to existance.

Either way, theres no point. No one is being accused of being Islamophobic for their stance on Palestine. I was merely trying to debunk the idea that opposing Israel equates to anti semitism.

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17 Nov 2012, 11:37 pm

It is not.

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17 Nov 2012, 11:53 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

Unless the socialists are more concerned over more severe issues (eg. the situation in Syria or the lack of freedom of speech in China), then they are indeed anti-semitic.

I think he's saying that they should be humanitarians first and socialists second.

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18 Nov 2012, 4:02 am

thomas81 wrote:

Have you considered that the international community is genuinely appalled by how Israel is behaving?

Do you need me to link a list of Jewish individuals and groups also opposed to Israel?

What International Community?
Don't even cite the International Community. The International Community = Leftwing politicians + Left-wing Editorials from around the world. Name one Right-wing politician or one Right-wing editorial who condemns Israel, and you still have to account for the 50 of each who are Left-wing. Please cite the authors of those who do publish positions against Israel in this so-called "International Community" along with their voting record, and that voting record will be consistent with just about every other Israel hater, being a left-leaning journalist. The other group who make up international community who are not left-wing are primitives who occupy the backwaters of humanity, and they know not what they do.

Who Cares About The Jew Who Doesn't Live There:
Jews who oppose Israel's existence are left-wingers. Which is fine, Jews have pioneered the Left from Marx onward, but I have yet to hear some good reasons why one should protest the existence of the one Jewish state in the world, especially from jewish groups. Please do not cite Jewish Groups who oppose the existence of Israel... rather, cite their arguments instead. Arguments for or against are what matter, not groups, because in the final analysis, who gives a s*** what Jews think if they are not living in Israel.

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18 Nov 2012, 4:46 am

abacacus wrote:

GGPViper wrote:

abacacus wrote:

GGPViper wrote:

abacacus wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

If the Israellis leave, they give up what's rightfully theirs. Knocking out Hamas may actually knock the confidence of other terrorist organizations down a few notches and teach them not to f*ck with Israel.

The Israeli's have as much right to that land as I do to the house I lived in when I was two.

So, UN recognition is irrelevant to you?

Entirely.

So, what right do the Palestinians have to the land?

They were there. Their homes were there, their families and jobs and what have you were there. They got kicked off that land because the rest of the world felt guilty over the Holocaust (refusing to shelter Jews from the Nazi's), which is hardly reasonable.

But why do you care? Since 1947, the populations that have been displaced throughout the world has been unimaginable. And I'm asking this in a serious sense. Why does someone who does not live in this part of the world care? Why do you know the palestinian struggle as well as you do? Considering the utter lack of care for all the other struggles and genocides that have taken place around the world, it is utterly racist to waste another moment reporting this on 24hr news, or in OP-ED's, or devoting college hours to discussing the issue, or protesting embassies.

But the Palestinian displacement has captivated the Liberal mind. Not only that, but the reasons the palestinians lost their land is never acknowledged, nor are the countless attempts to restore most of their land back to them, their failure owing to the fact that there should be no Jewish people living in these lands.

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18 Nov 2012, 6:24 am

A quick search on WP:

14,600 posts about Israel
2,700 posts about North Korea
1,790 posts about Palestine
1,180 posts about Somalia
915 posts about Sudan + Darfur
801 posts about Burma + Myanmar
797 posts about Congo + Zaire
279 posts about Kashmir

Hmm... Well, at least North Korea gets more attention than Palestine... All is not lost...

Oh, as I have pointed out before, it is well documented that the "international community" is biased against Israel:
http://www.eyeontheun.org/browse-un.asp ... Resolution

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18 Nov 2012, 6:39 am

thomas81 wrote:

You wont find much anti semitism on the left, but what you find on the right is this transparent and aggressive attempt to confuse anti semitism with criticism of Israel. The reason is obvious; they want all opposition to Israel branded as anti semitic and effectively silenced.

It is not a confusion if it is true...
http://www.h-net.org/~antis/papers/jcr_antisemitism.pdf

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