The Influence of Ayn Rand on American Society...

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But sometimes force is necessary when enforcing the rule of law, or to defend the rights of others. And the government has the responsibility to not only defend the rights of the individual, but the people's welfare in general.

Perhaps you missed the word "initiation." To initiate force in defense of rights would be a contradiction. Nobody has the right to aggress against others. Retaliatory force is a different issue.



We're not going to agree here. I say that "the people" is no more than a collection of individuals, who neither gain nor lose rights by being considered as a group. And something is "general" only if it applies to every single individual. I don't believe it is proper to violate the rights of some in order to (allegedly) benefit others. That way lies the Gulag.

I absolutely agree that the rights of some should not be promoted over the rights of others - that being said, it should be pointed out that racists have opposed civil rights legislation by misusing that very argument.

As well, the rights of the rich have been promoted over the rights of the poor, or the rights of the strong have been promoted over the rights of the weak with that same argument. And while in an ideal society, we'd all be taken as individuals, but the fact is, in reality that notion is rather naive. Human beings place themselves and others in groups, and that being the case, they view the "other" as unequal.

A large part of Rand's motivation was anti-Soviet, the fact that she was from there only made her critique more legitimate.

Yes, that explains it..

I told you we wouldn't agree. You don't see individuals, you see amorphous collectives, and assume that one group can benefit only at the expense of another.



Speak for yourself.

It may surprise you, but people who regularly step on other people lump them into groups in order to justify it.
And when did I say one group could only benefit at the expense of another? Far from it, I want everyone to have an equal share of the pie. But again, it's naive to assume people don't group themselves and other people into groups. It would be great to just be individuals, but that will never be part of the human experience, so we have to defend the rights of those who are stepped on by others just because they are of a different skin color, speak a different language, practice a different religion, come from a different part of the world, or are of a lower economic status.

ONE important caveat per your recent comment on human difference and group identification is that NORDIC societies per their historical success in the Nordic Model for economy are largely homogenous societies where for the MOST part everyone looks relatively the same IN EXTERIOR appearance.

With Muslim immigration into Sweden has come a great deal of resentment towards the difference in color and religion as well. The indigenous folks are not as keen on providing financial support either.

Humans ARE IN INHERENTLY and CULTURAL ENVIRONMENTALLY DISCRIMINATORY social ANIMALS TO WHAT IS DIFFERENT IN PHYSICAL AND CULTURAL DIFFERENCES DEVIATING substantially FROM the perceived norm.

And conflicts of immigration into these countries, in some cases, proves out just how inherently and culturally discriminatory these conflicts can be.

THE MELTING POT OF THE US, MAKES IT INHERENTLY AND ENVIRONMENTALLY HARDER TO SHARE AND MAKES IT HARD FOR THOSE WHO ARE SUBSTANTIALLY DIFFERENT TO SURVIVE, AT TIMES.

Without a social welfare state at least as strong AS currently exists in the U.S., anarchy could arise and that would not be fun for anyone, except sadists and masochists and other empathy lacking folks.

PEOPLE WHEN CHALLENGED ENOUGH, will do WHATEVER IT TAKES FOR SUBSISTENCE.

AND yes, if MS. Rand was still alive she would reap THESE 'benefits' of her philosophy if ever truly instituted in any society, she lived in.

The old saying be careful what ya wish for most definitely does apply here, OVERALL.

IF STATISTICS ARE CORRECT FOR THE FOLKS HERE ON THE Autism spectrum, given enough time, even the majority of folks who are against social welfare will be receiving it, if they live long enough.

And then the tune may change to a different broadcasting station. :)

As again, people WILL DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO SURVIVE. :)

aghogday-

I still have enough hope and faith in the American potential for inclusiveness that such a Nordic model could ultimately work.

Yes, while I always address facts as is, Human WILL, FAITH, BELIEF, and HOPE is what moves the mountains of human beings.

FACTS ARE JUST EMPTY SHELLS WITHOUT THE EMOTING POWER OF EMOTION FOR HUMAN PROGRESS.

SO YES, I too retain hope, as logic is only skin deep, as I KNOW 100% as TRUTH as I could move NO MOUNTAINS UNTIL I GOT MY EMOTING EMOTIONS BACK THAT DO INCLUDE FAITH, BELIEF AND HOPE.

WITHOUT THAT LIFE AIN'T 'SH**'.

AND LIFE IS 'SH**'.

WITH THE POWER OF HUMAN WILL AND FAITH, BELIEF, AND HOPE I'M MOVING METAPHORICAL HUMAN MOUNTAINS EVERYDAY including moving THE EMOTIONS OF HUMANS EVERYDAY TO THE TUNE OF THOUSANDS AT TIMES IN ONE DAY THROUGH THE NON-VERBAL POWER OF HUMAN NATURALLY GOD GIVEN EXPRESSED PRAISE DANCE.

YES PRAISE IS EMOTION TOO, AND A POWERFUL VOICE TO SWAY THE HEARTS OF HUMANKIND. :)

IF I COULD DO IT AFTER BEING THE 'HUNCH BACK OF NOTRE DAME' WITH 19 MEDICALLY DOCUMENTED DISORDERS IN THE 'CELLAR AND ATTIC' OF MY BEDROOM AS ALMOST A COMPLETE SHUT-IN FOR FIVE YEARS..

IMAGINE WHAT HEALTHY FOLKS COULD DO IF THEY JUST DEVELOPED THE WILL, FAITH, BELIEF AND HOPE OF JOB.

And perhaps one day they will.

And I DO RETAIN FAITH, BELIEF AND HOPE THAT THEY WILL TOO. :)

AS HUMAN EVOLVES IN LOVE AND DEVOLVES IN HATE.

AND rEVOLUTION LOVE IS WHERE i AM HEADED 'RIGHT' NOW!

And there are others walking with me as ONE FORCE OF LOVE.

AND NO THEY DO NOT KNOW ME, AS IT FORCE AND NOT HUMAN ALONE.

IT IS LOVE THAT IS ALLONE.

ALL WONow.

Have a great day, friend. :)

^^^
And you have a great day, too.

I like to look at Atlas Shrugged as a warning. Greed isn't a positive thing, but it is the chief motivator for many innovators. To compel people to give of their talent without what they'd deem as desirable compensation only discourages innovation.

Without these innovators, society would lose out on a lot of incredible things.

A free society needs to allow various avenues of reward so that all creators are encouraged to create.

I don't think anyone is saying that innovators shouldn't reap the rewards for their work. And it should be remembered, there have been inventors who have had rewards and accolades for inventions stolen by the big businesses they had worked for, after said big businesses claiming that the inventors and innovators, having been in their employ, made their innovations the product of the company - even if the work was don on the innovators own time. Private business can be the bad guy when it comes to the small innovator as much - if not more - than government or society.

Tesla came to mind as I read your post K.

Absolutely. Tesla was robbed by another probable Aspie, who happened to be a shameless self promoter.