Page 8 of 12 [ 189 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12  Next

Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

02 Jun 2013, 4:18 pm

MCalavera wrote:
I can excuse those who are ignorant, though.


Can I be ignorant? My head hurts.



Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Arizona

02 Jun 2013, 4:29 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The FSA has committed plenty massacres, they just attacked a Christian village a few days ago and were executing women and children. The FSA is no secular fighting force, they actually have a unit called the Osama Bin Laden brigade. They've carried out many car bombs and suicide bombings of civilians targets. A good portion of their fighters have left to join the al-Nusra front. You can't disassociate them from 'the rebels' and say they're not so bad, they are main force fighting Assad. Do you really think that some western backed group that has no presence in Syria will be able to control these groups that have their own agenda? A good portion if not the majority of rebel fighters in Syria are foreign fighters, what interest do you think someone from Chechnya has in Syria? Do you think the tens of thousands of foreign fighters will just go home? If Assad falls, do you really think Christians and Alawites will be protected? The US military wasn't able to the Christians in Iraq or stop the sectarian war between Sunnis and Shia. There can be no solution but a political one. Russia will not abandon Syria and neither will Hezbollah or Iran, you cannot defeat Assad without a larger regional war. Cracks are even starting to form in Turkey, this war could destabilize the entire middle east.


What's your source?

I did some research, and I didn't find a reliable source about it, the oldest source I found was there:
http://www.sma-syria.com/component/cont ... --qq-.html

A pro-Assad website.

I've used Google image-addon to look for the image's source there, and it got me that:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ldren.html

"Graphic photographs have emerged of the victims of an massacre allegedly committed by gangs of Syrian militia loyal to President Bashar Assad."



Now dailymail might not the best but that news was on 6 May, while sma's news with same image is on 27 May.


Likewise, there have been photos as massacres supposedly perpetrated by Assad that were actually pictures taken from Iraq 10 years ago. The BBC ran one last year. There are no credible sources out of Syria it seems. Do you not believe this happened? There was a bombing in Turkey on May 11th that the Turkish government attributed to Assad's secret police but there is a media blackout and it seems like the attack was very likely done by al-Nusra as means of pushing Turkey into war with Assad. The blackout and lies the government have told about this bombing are part of the reason for the unrest in Turkey right now amongst many other things their government has done over the last decade. It seems the people of Turkey don't want to war just as most Americans don't want war. Those chemical attacks we heard about were also very likely done by the rebels and Turkey actually just arrested some terrorists with sarin gas in their possession. Denying that they have committed atrocities and the danger they pose to Syria's minorities is denying reality, you have a dog in this fight so unsurprisingly you are not objective.

I doubt a political solution can found to this conflict either, one cannot negotiate with someone who thinks they are acting on god's will. They will fight until all of their enemies are dead, they will accept nothing less than total victory. Assad and those that support him can't give up since the the alternative for them is complete annihilation. Russia will not be ejected from the Mediterranean, Iran and Hezbollah will not abandon Syria. What will happen in Iraq, Lebanon, and Jordan? It seems you also want war against the Iranian regime, I want no part of that. Assad is not worth WWIII. I think a permanent partition of the country seems like the most logical solution, that's already the de facto situation on the ground.



MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

02 Jun 2013, 7:46 pm

Tequila wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
I can excuse those who are ignorant, though.


Can I be ignorant? My head hurts.


I don't know, but I do know Jacoby is very ignorant and blindly believes everything he reads on the Internet that supports his views.

I don't think he knows that the FSA is not equal to Jihadis. And even then, I find his latest claims to be suspect.



MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

02 Jun 2013, 7:53 pm

Jacoby wrote:
The FSA has committed plenty massacres, they just attacked a Christian village a few days ago and were executing women and children. The FSA is no secular fighting force, they actually have a unit called the Osama Bin Laden brigade. They've carried out many car bombs and suicide bombings of civilians targets. A good portion of their fighters have left to join the al-Nusra front. You can't disassociate them from 'the rebels' and say they're not so bad, they are main force fighting Assad. Do you really think that some western backed group that has no presence in Syria will be able to control these groups that have their own agenda? A good portion if not the majority of rebel fighters in Syria are foreign fighters, what interest do you think someone from Chechnya has in Syria? Do you think the tens of thousands of foreign fighters will just go home? If Assad falls, do you really think Christians and Alawites will be protected? The US military wasn't able to the Christians in Iraq or stop the sectarian war between Sunnis and Shia. There can be no solution but a political one. Russia will not abandon Syria and neither will Hezbollah or Iran, you cannot defeat Assad without a larger regional war. Cracks are even starting to form in Turkey, this war could destabilize the entire middle east.


Jacoby, STFU, man. FSA were originated to fight for the people, not to kill them. What you're reading is pro-Bashar propaganda. The whole point of the FSA was to back the demonstraters up.

You are spouting typical garbage that conspiracy theorists and Bashar c*cksuckers tend to spout.



MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

02 Jun 2013, 7:56 pm

Read this:
http://fikraforum.org/?p=3161

You have no more excuses not to know who the FSA are.



MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

02 Jun 2013, 7:57 pm

Hell, let e copy and paste it here for all to read:

Quote:
I have been to Northern Syria three times since January 2013 with a mission of exploring how the Free Syrian Army (FSA) functions. Before going to Syria, I had read many articles and seen many videos made by citizen-journalists, but being on the ground, seeing things with my own eyes made quite a difference.

I saw how two huge missiles from the Assad regime destroyed a marketplace in Azaz during its most crowded moment and how all bakeries have been bombed. I slept in the houses of soldiers while hearing bombs being dropped from planes overhead. Two generals took me to the battle for Quweris airport, a major frontline where I saw how the FSA fought with makeshift arms as the regime was firing cluster-bombs.

I also had the honor of visiting the FSA headquarters as the first foreigner. I met with many generals, commanders, and soldiers from all over Syria in order to understand what they stand for. And I had many talks with Salim Idriss, the newly elected chief of staff of the FSA, who’s visit I organised to the European Parliament on March 6, 2013.

An image that doesn’t fit with reality

Every conversation I had with an FSA commander started with the same two questions: “Why is the West not supporting us?” followed by “Are we the terrorists you thought we were?” Without waiting for the answer, each one of them tried to explain that they are not looking for sectarian violence. I heard countless stories of their efforts to protect Christians against attacks from the regime. I also sat with a Christian FSA general who only identified himself as Christian when I started to discuss the issue.

Every story came down to the same four points:

1. We do not want an Islamic state -- freedom and democracy is for all Syrians, regardless of their religion or ethnicity.

2. The jihadis are not in the FSA; however, they are well trained, well organized, and they have arms and money. Contrary to the FSA, brigades like Jabhat al-Nusra are able to pay their soldiers $200 per month. That’s what is making them stronger every day.

3. We are here to protect the people, schools, and hospitals, to organize aid, and to help the refugees. We try to organize police forces and courts, but the constant and random shelling makes this process extremely difficult. On top of that, almost all humanitarian aid goes through Assad and the Red Crescent and does not reach the rebel areas.

4. We do not have the right weapons to fight against planes, tanks, and ground-to-ground missiles. The arms which do come in are always too light and are sometimes even completely useless.

I must say that everything I saw during my trips confirms their stories. Their biggest frustration is that this portrayal of them is completely unknown outside Syria. What we see of the FSA is very confusing, an image that is fuelled by Assad’s propaganda. One of the regime’s methods is to systematically spread jihadi videos every time the FSA wins ground or captures an important strategic point. This way, the outside world gets the idea that it is not the FSA, but Jabhat al-Nusra that is succeeding militarily.

The new structure of the FSA

On December 6, 2013, more than 250 officers of the FSA gathered in Antalya, Turkey. There they elected Salim Idriss to the role of chief of staff and 30 officers into the Higher Revolutionary Military Council. They also organized the FSA into five fronts, each with its own commander who cooperates closely with the chief of staff: the Northern Front (Aleppo, Idlib), the Eastern Front (Raqqa, Deir al-Zour, al-Hasaka), the Western Front (Hama, Latakia, Tartus), the Central Front (Homs, Rastan), and the Southern Front (Damascus, Dara, Swaydda).

The new structure strengthens the organization because it unites the military and the revolutionary forces under one command. However, the organization is still new, and is therefore rather weak while under construction. Many fighters and battalions have never fought in a regular army and still must learn to follow a common strategy and code of conduct.

Here we come to the question of the chicken and the egg. The West expects the FSA to be properly organized before they can give them equipment and arms, but the FSA is having a hard time becoming properly organized as they lack basic equipment like satellite phones. They lack the money to pay hungry soldiers and they have not even enough arms to give every fighter a weapon. Only one in two people -- and maybe even fewer -- who want to fight have a gun. This is one of the main reasons that more soldiers of the Syrian military are not defecting.

The West is creating a new enemy

It is common knowledge that Assad is still receiving arms from Russia and Iran. And observers assume that the FSA too is being armed in some way or another. But this is not the reality I have seen on the ground, and this prevalence of wrong assumptions and wrong images is hugely frustrating for the FSA commanders. Many are even convinced that while the West is saying they want Assad to go, they in fact want him to stay. The FSA still sees the West as their ideological allies in their fight against a brutal dictatorship; therefore, they cannot understand why no help is coming.

If asked what exactly the FSA wants from the West, the answer is pretty clear: all help is needed. They need anti-aircraft weapons to stop the planes, weapons to stop the tanks and the missiles, and they need technical equipment. And when I asked what they thought about a no-fly-zone, their answer was: that would be wonderful. It would stop the destruction and the killing of citizens.

In fact, the choice is simple: Failing to make the FSA stronger is instead strengthening Assad and the jihadis. It is a choice between a democratic Syria, a dictatorship, and an Islamic state, for we are now either building a Syria that will be in favor of the West, or we are creating a new enemy.



Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Arizona

02 Jun 2013, 10:14 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The FSA has committed plenty massacres, they just attacked a Christian village a few days ago and were executing women and children. The FSA is no secular fighting force, they actually have a unit called the Osama Bin Laden brigade. They've carried out many car bombs and suicide bombings of civilians targets. A good portion of their fighters have left to join the al-Nusra front. You can't disassociate them from 'the rebels' and say they're not so bad, they are main force fighting Assad. Do you really think that some western backed group that has no presence in Syria will be able to control these groups that have their own agenda? A good portion if not the majority of rebel fighters in Syria are foreign fighters, what interest do you think someone from Chechnya has in Syria? Do you think the tens of thousands of foreign fighters will just go home? If Assad falls, do you really think Christians and Alawites will be protected? The US military wasn't able to the Christians in Iraq or stop the sectarian war between Sunnis and Shia. There can be no solution but a political one. Russia will not abandon Syria and neither will Hezbollah or Iran, you cannot defeat Assad without a larger regional war. Cracks are even starting to form in Turkey, this war could destabilize the entire middle east.


Jacoby, STFU, man. FSA were originated to fight for the people, not to kill them. What you're reading is pro-Bashar propaganda. The whole point of the FSA was to back the demonstraters up.

You are spouting typical garbage that conspiracy theorists and Bashar c*cksuckers tend to spout.


You accept no criticism of the FSA as legitimate and you say I'm the one reading propaganda? I've seen a lot of articles about the rebels making what amounts veiled threat that if we don't give them weapons that they'll side with the "terrorists". They really sound like our 'ideological allies'. This is an unwinnable conflict and the US should stay the hell out of it. We've made the mistake of arming 'rebels' before and it almost always comes back to bite us on the ass. So they claim to be fighting for 'freedom and democracy', so has every other rebel group in history. Why do these Syrian rebels deserve the benefit of the doubt? The risks far outweigh the benefits of intervening.



MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

02 Jun 2013, 10:59 pm

Your "criticism" is uncritical and is based on ignorance. You can't make distinctions between two different groups and you think in black or white terms. You also don't seem to acknowledge the existence of Syrians who are true rebels, and think FSA and the Nusra are one and the same. I also don't see you applying the same standards of judgement to Hizballah and Bashar regime that you apply to the opposition.

Start using critical thinking and maybe then we can have an intelligent talk about the situation.



MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

02 Jun 2013, 11:09 pm

Also, FSA are not exclusively Muslim, it has members from various backgrounds/ideologies: whether Muslims or secularists or Alawi or even some Christians.



Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Arizona

02 Jun 2013, 11:25 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Your "criticism" is uncritical and is based on ignorance. You can't make distinctions between two different groups and you think in black or white terms. You also don't seem to acknowledge the existence of Syrians who are true rebels, and think FSA and the Nusra are one and the same. I also don't see you applying the same standards of judgement to Hizballah and Bashar regime that you apply to the opposition.

Start using critical thinking and maybe then we can have an intelligent talk about the situation.


You're hung up on the FSA, it doesn't change how I feel about the conflict even if they're infallible like you believe.



MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

02 Jun 2013, 11:27 pm

Jacoby wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Your "criticism" is uncritical and is based on ignorance. You can't make distinctions between two different groups and you think in black or white terms. You also don't seem to acknowledge the existence of Syrians who are true rebels, and think FSA and the Nusra are one and the same. I also don't see you applying the same standards of judgement to Hizballah and Bashar regime that you apply to the opposition.

Start using critical thinking and maybe then we can have an intelligent talk about the situation.


You're hung up on the FSA, it doesn't change how I feel about the conflict even if they're infallible like you believe.


Strawman.

Also, I don't care how you feel. But if I see you continue to twist facts to support your views, rest assured I'm not going to let you get away with it.

Don't twist facts, and I'll stop responding.



Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Arizona

02 Jun 2013, 11:38 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Your "criticism" is uncritical and is based on ignorance. You can't make distinctions between two different groups and you think in black or white terms. You also don't seem to acknowledge the existence of Syrians who are true rebels, and think FSA and the Nusra are one and the same. I also don't see you applying the same standards of judgement to Hizballah and Bashar regime that you apply to the opposition.

Start using critical thinking and maybe then we can have an intelligent talk about the situation.


You're hung up on the FSA, it doesn't change how I feel about the conflict even if they're infallible like you believe.


Strawman.

Also, I don't care how you feel. But if I see you continue to twist facts to support your views, rest assured I'm not going to let you get away with it.

Don't twist facts, and I'll stop responding.


Strawman? Twisting facts? You're not even making sense anymore. You're hung up on the FSA and don't respond to any of the other points I have. Whether or not the FSA specifically are good guys is irrelevant since they're still allied with extremists which are the dominant fighting force on their side. I do not believe you can provide support for the rebels without also supporting these extremists. I think the implications of Assad falling reach far beyond just Syria and you can't dismiss the danger posed to Syria's minorities when it is the 'rebels' themselves that say they intend to wipe out the Alawites. A general saying the right things in order to get weapons does not impress me and neither does a diplomat not in the country, if they had control of the troops on the ground then why are these atrocities happening?



The_Face_of_Boo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Age: 43
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 33,456
Location: Beirut, Lebanon.

03 Jun 2013, 2:07 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Syrian_Army

Quote:
Relationship with Islamists

See also: al-Nusra Front
As of December 2012, some Islamist or jihadist groups are fighting the government in Syria. These groups include al-Nusra Front (with 6,000–10,000 volunteers)[188] and Ahrar al-Sham. They have allegedly fought alongside the secular rebel groups a number of times.[189] Some jihadists have also allegedly joined FSA-aligned groups.[146][147]

However, some rebels are worried by the extreme beliefs and tactics used by the Islamists.[189][190] The FSA has consistently condemned al-Nusra Front's use of suicide bombs.[189] There is also unease between the Islamists and other rebel groups. In some parts of Syria, "Jihadist and secular rebel groups watch each other's military bases warily, unclasping the safety catches on their guns as they pass".[190] FSA commanders accuse the Islamists of "hijacking a revolution that began as an uprising to demand a democratic system".[190][191] Interviews with the FSA suggest that its top commanders see the Islamists as "a threat to stability post regime change".[191] The leader of a rebel group in Idlib Province said "We are not fighting Bashar al-Assad to go from living in an autocratic to a religious prison".[190] Some members of the FSA believe that, after the Assad government has been overthrown, the next war will be between the FSA and the Islamists.[190]


FSA-Nusra alliance is forged by a common enemy, once this common enemy is gone then they're gonna clash, an alliance forged by hatred never lasts. A main reason why this alliance was created is the lack of aids from so-called western allies while Al-Assad is receiving tons of weapons from Russia and fighters from Iran/Hezbollah.

Unlike the west, Russia/Iran always were way ahead in how to create allies and stick to their side.

FSA has 60,000[1] - 140,000 fighters, AL Nusra are 5,000 – 10,000.



MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

03 Jun 2013, 4:37 am

Jacoby wrote:
Strawman? Twisting facts? You're not even making sense anymore. You're hung up on the FSA and don't respond to any of the other points I have. Whether or not the FSA specifically are good guys is irrelevant since they're still allied with extremists which are the dominant fighting force on their side. I do not believe you can provide support for the rebels without also supporting these extremists. I think the implications of Assad falling reach far beyond just Syria and you can't dismiss the danger posed to Syria's minorities when it is the 'rebels' themselves that say they intend to wipe out the Alawites. A general saying the right things in order to get weapons does not impress me and neither does a diplomat not in the country, if they had control of the troops on the ground then why are these atrocities happening?


They're not all allied with the extremists. You are ignorant of the situation in Syria yet you keep acting like you know a lot more than you actually do. You don't know jack s**t about who is with who nor about what the goals are, etc.

You even think Bashar is an angel compared to the opposition extremists when in fact he is just as extreme as they are. He's no secular (this is just some label he hides himself behind). And in fact, if things go the Syrian National Coalition way, there's not going to be a sharia but something better than what Bashar ever promised.

Again, stop twisting facts because you know jack sh*t.



MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

03 Jun 2013, 4:39 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Syrian_Army

Quote:
Relationship with Islamists

See also: al-Nusra Front
As of December 2012, some Islamist or jihadist groups are fighting the government in Syria. These groups include al-Nusra Front (with 6,000–10,000 volunteers)[188] and Ahrar al-Sham. They have allegedly fought alongside the secular rebel groups a number of times.[189] Some jihadists have also allegedly joined FSA-aligned groups.[146][147]

However, some rebels are worried by the extreme beliefs and tactics used by the Islamists.[189][190] The FSA has consistently condemned al-Nusra Front's use of suicide bombs.[189] There is also unease between the Islamists and other rebel groups. In some parts of Syria, "Jihadist and secular rebel groups watch each other's military bases warily, unclasping the safety catches on their guns as they pass".[190] FSA commanders accuse the Islamists of "hijacking a revolution that began as an uprising to demand a democratic system".[190][191] Interviews with the FSA suggest that its top commanders see the Islamists as "a threat to stability post regime change".[191] The leader of a rebel group in Idlib Province said "We are not fighting Bashar al-Assad to go from living in an autocratic to a religious prison".[190] Some members of the FSA believe that, after the Assad government has been overthrown, the next war will be between the FSA and the Islamists.[190]


FSA-Nusra alliance is forged by a common enemy, once this common enemy is gone then they're gonna clash, an alliance forged by hatred never lasts. A main reason why this alliance was created is the lack of aids from so-called western allies while Al-Assad is receiving tons of weapons from Russia and fighters from Iran/Hezbollah.

Unlike the west, Russia/Iran always were way ahead in how to create allies and stick to their side.

FSA has 60,000[1] - 140,000 fighters, AL Nusra are 5,000 – 10,000.


Just additional information. There is big tension between both groups. They are not agreeing with each other they way the extremist Bashar and the extremist Hizballah are agreeing with each other.

F*ck Nusra, but also f*ck Bashar l khara and f*ck Hizballa.



MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

03 Jun 2013, 4:42 am

Oh, and one thing, if the country is so secular under Bashar, why are there morality police stationed in Syria? :roll: