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fibonaccispiral777
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09 Oct 2013, 7:16 am

redriverronin wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Mukherjee80 wrote:
A conspiracy is just two or more people working together on a common objective without being open about what they are doing or why. They happen all the time. If a genuine conspiracy is only suspected by a minority of people rather than being widely accepted, then you have a conspiracy theory. And if a non-existent conspiracy is suspected by a minority of people, then you have another conspiracy theory. Some conspiracy theories are going to be true and some are going to be false.

I know there are people out there who will refuse to accept the official explanation for just about anything, but "anti-conspiracy-theorists" can be just as pig-headed.

I think anti-conspiracy-theorizing has a lot to do with ego-massaging. It must make a person feel so much more well-adjusted to think about all those supposed losers out there who need to make up stories to make their lives more interesting.

I don't think it's a coincidence that most anti-conspiracy-theorists I've come across tend to be neocon-types. You know, the sort of people who think their country is a beacon of progress for the entire world to aspire to, and who think that anyone who disagrees is a lunatic who hates them for their freedom (or something).


I don't like placing legit investigations of conspiracies and such in the same category as the traditional conspiracy theories being discussed here. And it would be misleading of you to do so.


What are some legit conspiracies in your opinion?


-MKULTRA is a legit conspiracy theory. Information was released showing that the CIA performed mind control experiments with LSD on knowing and unknowing members of the public. Check out Operation Midnight Climax for this. Frank Olson, a man working for the cia commit suicide after they spiked his punch with acid.

-Engineered recessions and financial fraud- check out the film Inside Job. It is a well known, undisputed fact that Goldman Sachs and the people working for him deregulated the economy to create an anarchic free market in which they bribed the rating companies that rate the economic stability of companies to rate companies that were about to collapse and then told other companies to bet on the companies that were going to fall so that they could bet on their bet and make money off of their loss. Hope that makes sense.

-Counter-intelligence programs against 60s activists. This was called COINTELPRO and sought to secretly infiltrate activist groups and seek to undermine them.

-The CIA's involvement in the drug trade.



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09 Oct 2013, 8:17 am

Some conspiracy theories have the problem that aren't the ''common sense'' like autism. Many smart people need convince the obvious to dumb normapath people, like the father convince your kid that study is a good thing to make and will be reward.
And the ''elite'' invent many psychological control ways to make the people avoid (even mentally) accept that some conspiracy theories are many near to reality, own name ''CONSPIRACY THEORIES'' are way to ridicule the people. Owwn, look, this guy believe in conspiracy theories, he's paranoid, schizo, weird, crazy....
And, i believe that many stupid conspiracy theories like ''rapetylians'', are ways to deviate and confuse the people.



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09 Oct 2013, 9:39 am

Less absurd conspiracy "theories" are still absurd.



fibonaccispiral777
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09 Oct 2013, 9:55 am

MCalavera wrote:
Less absurd conspiracy "theories" are still absurd.


Which ones specifically are you referring to? I have just given a list of conspiracy 'theories' that are very much proven, at least I would say proven, such as MKULTRA, which we know about since the CIA were obliged to release information about it under the freedom of information act. So, which ones are you talking about?



fibonaccispiral777
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09 Oct 2013, 10:01 am

Goddard wrote:
Some conspiracy theories have the problem that aren't the ''common sense'' like autism. Many smart people need convince the obvious to dumb normapath people, like the father convince your kid that study is a good thing to make and will be reward.
And the ''elite'' invent many psychological control ways to make the people avoid (even mentally) accept that some conspiracy theories are many near to reality, own name ''CONSPIRACY THEORIES'' are way to ridicule the people. Owwn, look, this guy believe in conspiracy theories, he's paranoid, schizo, weird, crazy....
And, i believe that many stupid conspiracy theories like ''rapetylians'', are ways to deviate and confuse the people.


I completely agree with you on the issue of the word 'conspiracy' having become completely demonized as to make conspiracy theorists mentally ill and immune to any kind of skepticism. This is not say that there aren't any conspiracy theorists who are ignorant and not willing to think rationally about things but by lumping all conspiracies together and labeling them as so negates the fact that some have been proven to be true. Not 9/11 and stuff like that and JFK. In regards to those, I think there is just too much conflicting evidence that the truth shall never be known. Even if the government came out and said 'yep, we did it', there would be conspiracy theorists saying that this was disinformation. Saying this however, things like MKULTA, Operation Midnight Climax, Engineered financial recessions, Financial Fraud, Fluoride in water-systems. I would say all these things have more or less been proven to be true. In fact, Abby Martin, who is a journalist for Russia Today the alternative news network, said that the CIA purposefully hijacked such a word to demonize all conspiracy theorists.



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09 Oct 2013, 10:44 am

fibonaccispiral777 wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Less absurd conspiracy "theories" are still absurd.


Which ones specifically are you referring to? I have just given a list of conspiracy 'theories' that are very much proven, at least I would say proven, such as MKULTRA, which we know about since the CIA were obliged to release information about it under the freedom of information act. So, which ones are you talking about?


I was responding to the poster above me. And I don't call those ones you mention conspiracy theories. Reason being is so there isn't the mistake of lumping them all into the same category. The newer definition of conspiracy theory is more suitable nowadays than the original one.



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09 Oct 2013, 10:51 am

Concerning MKUltra, check this link:

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4373



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09 Oct 2013, 11:26 am

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It's time again to open the mailbag and respond to some listener feedback, this time focusing on conspiracy theory episodes. But before addressing any specific emails today, I want to respond to the argument that's far and away the most common regarding conspiracies. That argument is that real conspiracies do exist, therefore conspiracy theories are plausible. Julius Caesar was killed by a conspiracy. The Watergate scandal was executed by a conspiracy. The Iran-Contra affair was a conspiracy. Since conspiracies do exist and have been confirmed, how can I say that no conspiracy theory has ever been proven true? And, just so there's no ambiguity, I do say that: No conspiracy theory has ever been proven true. I stand by this statement as fact, given the distinction between a real conspiracy and a conspiracy theory. So let's define that distinction clearly.

Conspiracies, as we refer to them, are crimes or schemes carried out in secret by a group of conspirators. Sometimes they are discovered, like the three I just mentioned; and others have undoubtedly successfully remained undetected. These clearly exist. But they are quite distinct from what we colloquially call a conspiracy theory, which is claimed knowledge of a conspiracy that has not yet been discovered by law enforcement or Congress or the newspapers or the general public. They are, in fact, future predictions. They are the beliefs or conclusions of the theorist that they predict will eventually come true or be discovered. Here are three examples. For decades, some conspiracy theorists have claimed prescient knowledge that the North American nations will merge into a single police state using a currency called the Amero; that has never come true. Many conspiracy theorists claim that 9/11 was conducted by the American government; that has never been discovered. They've claimed a huge number of alternate hypotheses of who killed John F. Kennedy, and none of those have ever been discovered. The list goes on, and on, and on. Unlike a Julius Caesar conspiracy discovered when or after it took place, a conspiracy theory is of a discovery that has yet to take place.


http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4364



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09 Oct 2013, 11:36 am

fibonaccispiral777 wrote:
Goddard wrote:
Some conspiracy theories have the problem that aren't the ''common sense'' like autism. Many smart people need convince the obvious to dumb normapath people, like the father convince your kid that study is a good thing to make and will be reward.
And the ''elite'' invent many psychological control ways to make the people avoid (even mentally) accept that some conspiracy theories are many near to reality, own name ''CONSPIRACY THEORIES'' are way to ridicule the people. Owwn, look, this guy believe in conspiracy theories, he's paranoid, schizo, weird, crazy....
And, i believe that many stupid conspiracy theories like ''rapetylians'', are ways to deviate and confuse the people.


I completely agree with you on the issue of the word 'conspiracy' having become completely demonized as to make conspiracy theorists mentally ill and immune to any kind of skepticism. This is not say that there aren't any conspiracy theorists who are ignorant and not willing to think rationally about things but by lumping all conspiracies together and labeling them as so negates the fact that some have been proven to be true. Not 9/11 and stuff like that and JFK. In regards to those, I think there is just too much conflicting evidence that the truth shall never be known. Even if the government came out and said 'yep, we did it', there would be conspiracy theorists saying that this was disinformation. Saying this however, things like MKULTA, Operation Midnight Climax, Engineered financial recessions, Financial Fraud, Fluoride in water-systems. I would say all these things have more or less been proven to be true. In fact, Abby Martin, who is a journalist for Russia Today the alternative news network, said that the CIA purposefully hijacked such a word to demonize all conspiracy theorists.


The plan of ''elite'' is created a one global ditacture without pain.
Well, no talk about Syria today, they are get.
I believe that 11/09 make sens because Israel need to US to make military interventions in middle east. Israel survive only because US support them, without US they would risk to map by arabs, because the great difference in demographic effectives between the two sides.



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09 Oct 2013, 11:42 am

Fibonacci, the fluoride in water being toxic thingy is unscientific and is a conspiracy theory. So you might want to do a bit more research on that one.



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09 Oct 2013, 12:38 pm

MCalavera wrote:
fibonaccispiral777 wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Less absurd conspiracy "theories" are still absurd.


Which ones specifically are you referring to? I have just given a list of conspiracy 'theories' that are very much proven, at least I would say proven, such as MKULTRA, which we know about since the CIA were obliged to release information about it under the freedom of information act. So, which ones are you talking about?


I was responding to the poster above me. And I don't call those ones you mention conspiracy theories. Reason being is so there isn't the mistake of lumping them all into the same category. The newer definition of conspiracy theory is more suitable nowadays than the original one.


I would say there is a mistake regarding lumping them into the same category, in fact according to wikipedia, both mkultra and the engineering of western economies to generate capital gain off recessions are considered conspiracy theories even though they have been well established to be true due to documentation and through legal proceedings. I find that rationalists have created a certain web that one cannot get out of when discussing which conspiracy theories are true. One is asked which conspiracy theories are fact and which ones are false and when presented with the ones that are factual, the rationalist will therefore say that isn't a conspiracy theory, It IS a conspiracy theory I would say when it is thought of being one in the public consciousness.



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09 Oct 2013, 12:40 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Fibonacci, the fluoride in water being toxic thingy is unscientific and is a conspiracy theory. So you might want to do a bit more research on that one.


5 million people in the Uk currently have excess amounts of fluoride added to their water supply and the affects on teeth, bones and so forth i would say are fairly established within the scientific community.



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09 Oct 2013, 12:48 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Concerning MKUltra, check this link:

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4373


I don't really understand what that article is suggesting. If anything, I would say that the article is stating that MK-ultra and other mind control and behavioral modification operations were carried out after the second world and that this isn't disputed. I certainly agree that there is no empirical evidence to suggest it is happening now and that to say so would be pure superstition.

Of course, if it were we would have no way of knowing considering the reasons as to why Frank Olson was killed due to the CIA's obsession with lysergic acid were only released twenty years after it occurred. One would expect any research that is currently being undertaken to be brought to light far later. Of course, there is no way we could say now however we know it went on and I would say the conspiracy is defined by the fact that it happened in the past rather than its status today but that is matter of semantics.

It would be fair to say that the CIA was hugely corrupt and immoral when carrying out such testing and many of the mind control tests were an infringement upon the constitution as well as certain laws, considering many of the individuals involved had no free will in the matter, which was the case in OPERATION MIDNIGHT CLIMAX. Conspiracy means hidden and to me such testing was hidden from public view and documents surrounding it were suppressed.



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09 Oct 2013, 4:45 pm

Oh, great, you're no different from a typical conspiracy theorist (your comment on fluoride in water gives it away). Next time, don't be so sneaky.



Last edited by MCalavera on 09 Oct 2013, 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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09 Oct 2013, 4:46 pm

fibonaccispiral777 wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Fibonacci, the fluoride in water being toxic thingy is unscientific and is a conspiracy theory. So you might want to do a bit more research on that one.


5 million people in the Uk currently have excess amounts of fluoride added to their water supply and the affects on teeth, bones and so forth i would say are fairly established within the scientific community.


Big thumbs down to you for this stupid post.



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09 Oct 2013, 6:55 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Oh, great, you're no different from a typical conspiracy theorist (your comment on fluoride in water gives it away). Next time, don't be so sneaky.



What the problem he think like that?
You is a true owner?
You have the ABSOLUTE certain about that?