Socialism

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Who said fixing them with a system? I'm Libertarian - I fix them by REMOVING the system. Lets break down a few governmental services. (This little part is, more or less, just me typing outloud (Dex, I responded to your post below my little pile of crap here))

Socialism programs:

Welfare - Allows people to continually fall. Takes money from those who make money and distributes it, like a FORCED charity, to those who need it.

Those who need it might be:
- Addicts
- People who are not motivated (depressed, etc)
- Single Parents
- Poor families who REALLY need the money and are about the only true case for welfare

Those who are on welfare, in Canada, have protested the amount they were receiving. As they protested, time ticked away that could have been spent "flipping burgers." "Flipping burgers" is not a wonderful job and many think that that reasoning is an excuse to steal from those who make money (welfare). Welfare payments come in a cheque form. There is no 'monitoring' of 'looking for a job' but rather generous handouts.

Alternative to this? Life insurance. Open market, amounts become competitive. You have a simple responsibility of obtaining some instead of a government handing you it (its called choice, will you make the right one?)


Governmental Health care - Provides health care to all citizens of a country.

Those who need it are:
- Everyone

Seems simple but wait - everyone PAYS the same amount of money:
- Smokers pay the same
- People who do not exercise pay the same
- Those who routinely suffer from a multitude of conditions pay the same (not their fault, though)
- Drinkers pay the same
- Obese people who eat wrong pay the same

As well, you've 0 choice, if you can afford better, to go to a better doctor (in Canada, that means leaving the country as its actually "illegal" to seek private medical centers - ILLEGAL, figure that one out).

Also, Children's hospitals in Canada, for example, have to do additional fundraising to pay for their services/facilities. So, governmental health care is biased to those who are extremely healthy (everyone pays the same) and allows no alternatives. AND MORE, since there is no competition, you get what the government thinks is a 'standard of health' (btw, waiting 22 hours in an emergency room is no efficient when the neighbors to the south can get you in and out almost as fast as you come in)

Alternative to this: Health insurance in an open market. This allows competition for insurance prices and allows hospitals to better set prices to services. Additional charities, that are operating today, can fundraise for children/families who cannot afford insurance. This is not a new idea as charities currently exist now. As well, more money in peoples pocket, since they are not paying for services, may lead to more donations (more money to donate, less taxes). Even more, charities are more efficient, even the corrupt ones, then governmental systems where officials give themselves payraises.



Changing people's behaviour starts at the parents level. Parents, today, don't even know how to raise a family. Thats just f*****g pathetic. However, this is up to individuals to better themselves. I cannot force people to stop being greedy or stupid, thats their decision, thats THEIR responsibility. Until that happens, any talk about governments is pointless and stupid since the people they govern are pathetic losers.

Your individual freedom is not severely curtailed at all. It revolves around responsibility. If your freedom meant "running around with grenades" then I'm sorry, its not responsible. If you think shooting paintball guns at peoples cows are fun, think again. Responsibility is basically "dont do what you dont want people to do to you" mixed with "do what you like as long as it doesnt impede on me at any length." There isn't a whole lot to it. I dont know why people freak out so much. You may not even have to change one bit.



Angels could = responsible. People need to learn to blame themselves for everything versus blaming everything else.

I think if we brought everyone within an 'inch' of their lives, they'd have a new outlook on things. I SERIOUSLY think that. i.e. If they were greedy before, almost dying may put what that "greed" meant into perspective.

I say that because "death" would mean their breathing rate is down considerably. Very comparable to a meditative state. Even more so:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience

1. A sense of being dead. < -- "Death" Meditation
2. An out-of-body experience. A sensation of floating above one's body and seeing the surrounding area. < -- Often associated with meditation
3. Pleasant feelings, calmness. A sense of overwhelming love and peace. < -- BIG area of meditation
4. A sensation of moving upwards through a tunnel or narrow passageway.
5. Meeting deceased relatives or spiritual figures. < -- Could happen, hasnt to me though. However, people DO pray (meditation is also prayer)
6. Encountering a being of light, or a light (possibly a religious or divine figure). < -- this happens in meditation, a feeling of 'seeing light' even when a room is dark
7. Being given a life review. < -- self reflection in meditation
8. Reaching a border or boundary.
9. A feeling of being returned to the body, often accompanied by a reluctance. (meditation doesnt contain "reluctance")

Last edited by Corvus on 01 Feb 2007, 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I am a libertarian as well...kind of...actually, I am not quite sure what I would call myself.

I agree with personal responsibility and that it does start with parents. I agree with taking down systems. Sorry, I just don't think its fair to expect me to pay for someone who smokes a lot or engages in risky behavior. They make the choice, they pay for the difference.

I don't really understand the paranoia about insurance, and actually, I think that if you release insurance companies from governmental oversight (i.e. control) and turn it over to the free market, you would find that people could all of a sudden afford really good insurance for really competitive prices.

Also, maybe health care wouldn't be so expensive if people weren't filing lawsuits all the time.

I also think that free trade does NOT end at the border, and if people can get cheaper health care in a different country, then examine why it costs so much to get it in your own. I bet you would find all sorts of "agreements" and tariffs and whatnot designed to keep American jobs and American money inside America---that is not free trade.

Competition is required.

But the system Anubis is advocating DOES limit my freedom. I am not about to go running around with grenades (unless it is in my own backyard on my own property, in which case I can do whatever I want to myself.)

Dex, I think we're on the same page with a lot of stuff

I didnt read a lot of what Anubis talked about, I kind of just jumped in

Scaring someone into behaving a certain way will work only until the threat is no longer that scary. How often are you going to have to scare people?

Yeah, we really are. Except for the scaring bit. Not quite sure how I feel about that. Had a gun pointed to my head once, gave 'em my wallet instead of telling 'em off; doesn't mean I am going around giving everyone my wallet now.

I kind of brought this up as a QUICK/interesting/humourous (but true) solution because forcing people to meditate won't work (though, I think meditation exercises should be taught in Gym class while they teach you leg/arm exercises and people can continue them if they choose)

How often? Well, again, I think it comes to responsibility and how much people TRUELY care about changing the world. We can keep doing this and repeating history with our wars, beliefs, and BS, but we'll just keep repeating it. ONE civilization will HAVE to take a hit, in my opinion, whether they voluntarily decide to "restart" society or we wait until it collapses, either through economical reasons or a massive war (I'm thinking 'massive war' similar to what is suggested in 'Star Trek: First Contact')

haha I wouldn't scare people or attempt to kill them. I'm extremely peaceful and won't even play "shot for shot" because hitting others and being hit is stupid.

My point was, with the death, is the 'enlightenment' towards life that is achieved which extends to responsibilities and the like. I would gamble some money that our grandparents, who fought in WW2, came out of that experience more 'enlightened' towards "life itself" then any of the youth today (who have not seen war)

(I myself have tried to meditate, and cannot get my brain to slow down. This is also why I have trouble sleeping, I think.)

"It would seem from even a cursory reading of world history that there is no new horror under the sun, that we will perhaps always have to contend with destructive impulses in ourselves and others. That does not prevent us from making an effort to change, from working to find a better way."

Viggo Mortensen (Aragorn) wrote that as in introduction to a Making-Of LOTR book I have, and I really like it (the quote, but I like the book, too.)

I think that the answer really comes down to control, and whether you have the ability to let people make their own choices, even if you disagree with them. This is why I think limited government is imperative to freedom; limit the power othes have over what you do.

And education. I cannot stress that enough. Education in the classics--a classical education, the kind that you find behind men like Lincoln, Jefferson, Washington, Locke, Blackstone, etc. That thinking man's education, not the crap they stuff down your throats in public schools, but a classical education steeped in philosophy and great works to get people to really THINK about things rather than just emotionally react to a perceived injustice.

I dunno.

I'm gonna finish my thought from that wiki article:

So, thats just to finish my 'radical' thought



Everyone has that problem. It just shows you how busy and wacky your mind is. Takes time. Took me a month to get into it but I had years of "sitting infront of a stereo doing nothing but listening to music and thinking or etc." which I think was a bit of a help. Takes practice which is why most don't partake in it, in my belief



I understand why the power is there. Its like sitting in a car and not driving - you've no control and are relying on others. Society relies on others and that control makes sure people don't "crash the car" even though I dont agree with it one bit as it doesnt fix a damn thing, eh, in my opinion.

Education - I will help you "stress it" constantly as I think it has a lot of power behind it too

I agree with you. It isn't fascist, even though it sounds like that in the way it requires to cut down on certain freedoms. It doesn't restrict anyone from starting a company. It gives everyone equal opportunities, but at the same time abuse results in punishment. There's a difference between economic and individual freedom, as well.

How can it regulate all of the companies in such a manner if it does not restrict it, I mean, if one can freely start up a company then how will the government really keep a hold on everyone's behavior? How is it indeed not capitalist if it has free entry for entrepreneurs and free sale, ownership of resources, and many other trade-marks of the capitalist system? How does this mesh really make sense, as it tries to combine the mechanisms of state control with individual control without regard to where exactly they do clash? Finally, I don't think that there ultimately is a difference "Economic control is not merely control of a sector of human life which can be separated from the rest; it is the control of the means for all our ends. And whoever has sole control of the means must also determine which ends are to be served, which values are to be rates higher and which lower, in short, what men should believe and strive for."- Friedrich Hayek, from the Road to Serfdom

Oh, dang, you found the quote first! I could not remember where I read it. No, you cannot separate the two. Economics is the study of human action; if you restrict the "economy," you are restricting human choice.

Well, that quote is one of my more favored quotes. I do not forget that he said it and the Road to Serfdom was an interesting book that related to this. Calling economics the study of human action really cannot be described inaccurate either as even though that sounds odd in our traditional understanding, what must be understood is that economics deals with trade-offs and incentives, and use of resources to attain ends all of which relate perfectly relate to human action.

Im still waiting for an answer to my question: If it is so great why do people FLEE socialist countires instead of trying to enter them for better lives.