Tropes vs Women in Video Games: Ms. Male Chararacter"
sliqua-jcooter
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07 Dec 2013, 7:46 pm
LKL wrote:
My experience with Felicia Day is limited to 'Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog.' I haven't heard, seen, or read her saying anything substantial about video games, good or bad, even after googling her in the context of this thread.
a) Go watch The Guild.
b) Go watch Co-Optitude.
c) Most of what she's said overtly about sexism in video games has come from talks she's given at conventions, but I think she's made a much bigger statement about girl gamers, and girl characters *in* video games in the portrayal of her characters in The Guild and her character contributions in games like Dragon Age.
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sliqua-jcooter
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07 Dec 2013, 8:09 pm
Can't say I've seen any of Sarkeesian's videos, but it would have been deliciously ironic to witness the male gamer community shriek like rabid chimpanzees at her and unwittingly confirm her arguments about their culturally ingrained sexism. Alas, I only heard about her after she disabled comments on her videos.
That said, while there is no excuse for the misogynistic savagery that gamers have directed at Sarkeesian, I can see why feminist critiques of pop culture can make even well-meaning men uncomfortable. As an artist and a creative writer, I've received more than my share of flak for presenting my female characters in a very heterosexual male gaze (e.g. making them nubile and scantily clad). Any media that portrays women in a sexualized manner may get charged with sexist objectification regardless of the artists' intentions. Mind you, these critics do not necessarily represent feminists as a whole, but they are vocal enough to ruin feminism's image in many heterosexual male minds.
07 Dec 2013, 10:29 pm
Jono wrote:
?! I don't see how that follows. I could of sworn that I specifically said in a previous post that it was unfair to label the whole gaming community as misogynistic. And who's Krista Milburn anyway? I haven't heard about her.
I'm simply stating the obvious - that those are the only two viable options when considering the source of abuse aimed at her kickstarter video. This wasn't a coordinated backlash by the gaming community, as she continues to claim.
Quote:
Regardless of my ignorance about 4chan, I know about the reddit source and most of it comes from people in the Men's Rights subreddit. So, that actually supports what I've seen regarding MRA's being partly behind it. The Gaming subreddit may of had threads discussing her videos, like this one, but I don't think they would've openly discussed harassing her, unlike what the Men's Rights one seems to do.
I'm perfectly willing to accept that some MRA's have taken part in online trolling vs Sarkeesian, but can we really draw any conclusions from MRA's vs Feminists attacking each other on the internet (or indeed elsewhere) other than they simply are not ever going to get along?
Quote:
I tell you what, show me some specific criticisms that that you think are good which some people have made, then I'll try to explain why they miss the point, or not, depending on whether they are valid. Sephardic-Male has already posted that video of Jordan Owen criticising her most recent video. However, although I've watched the whole thing and do think that most of it missing the point, that video is simply too long for me to go through all of it and give counterarguments to all of them.
Jordan Owen presented a reasonable, if simplistic response to what is, after all, a simplistic video. While watching it, I picked out maybe a handful of points he made that I disagreed with, but overall I felt he hit the mark adequately enough.
On the credibility of Sarkeesian - of paramount importance when establishing her motives:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcPIu3sDkEw[/youtube]
The Amazing Atheist on "Damsel in Distress: Part 2":
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25o0EZiogw0[/youtube]
Quote:
Hmm, the problem that I have with Euthanised Damsel has got nothing to do with the developer wanting to condone anything, that's besides the point. The problem that I have with with it is that the player's character is forced to kill the damsel in the end even though via the in-game story it's someone that he supposedly loves as well as the fact that the killing is portrayed as a good thing. The usual argument to defend it is that it depends on context and that there's usually a backstory where it seems to be justified. However, regardless of the backstory, it is still the player's character that pulls the trigger and I hate it and find it distasteful when that happens, especially when it's a character that you get to know early on in the game and that the character is completely innocent.
Like I said, I don't agree with your preference but there's nothing wrong with having different tastes when it comes to the arts. Your problem with "Euthanised Damsel" is certainly not a gender issue, it's a creative decision making issue. If the writer of a game makes such a creative decision then that is their right, regardless whether we agree with it. They're telling a story for the purposes of entertaining an audience, not trying to soothe the ruffled feathers of special interest political groups. This reminds me of the Aeris/Aerith backlash with Final Fantasy VII, with millions of fans choosing to re-insert her after dying by using cheat-code devices.
Quote:
I don't necessarily want to impose political beliefs on anyone else but I think that the euthanised damsel trope is horrible extremely bad storytelling. Oh, and since I think that video games are a form of art, then one can criticise them just like any other form of media including television and media. I doubt that Anita Sarkesian has any power to force her views on anyone. If she influences the game industry it would be because she has some support from developers.
This is where you and Sarkeesian differ. She is attempting to force her political views onto an artform that she doesn't even seem to acknowledge as legitimate, let alone know much about.
Quote:
Well, some of them maybe teenagers but I don't know if the majority of them have an immature understanding of the world. Maybe some of them are just reclusive.
I suggest that all teenagers have an immature understanding of the world, but it's really not important to the discussion. Gamers as a whole have been held to task for the actions of a minority (and indeed, the actions of non-gamers). This is simply unacceptable.
Quote:
I've seen few threads about her on the internet that weren't locked but ended normally and people just lost interest. I don't think that that will happen to this thread though. Already, it got buried under a number of other threads after I hadn't responded to you for just over a day.
Perhaps there's just insufficient interest in video games amongst the PPR regulars. For that reason, this thread may well be better off in the Video Games sub-forum, though I doubt the discussion would fit in with the general tone there. It does seem to be staying on page 1 though.
BrandonSP wrote:
Can't say I've seen any of Sarkeesian's videos, but it would have been deliciously ironic to witness the male gamer community shriek like rabid chimpanzees at her and unwittingly confirm her arguments about their culturally ingrained sexism. Alas, I only heard about her after she disabled comments on her videos.
That said, while there is no excuse for the misogynistic savagery that gamers have directed at Sarkeesian, I can see why feminist critiques of pop culture can make even well-meaning men uncomfortable. As an artist and a creative writer, I've received more than my share of flak for presenting my female characters in a very heterosexual male gaze (e.g. making them nubile and scantily clad). Any media that portrays women in a sexualized manner may get charged with sexist objectification regardless of the artists' intentions. Mind you, these critics do not necessarily represent feminists as a whole, but they are vocal enough to ruin feminism's image in many heterosexual male minds.
That said, while there is no excuse for the misogynistic savagery that gamers have directed at Sarkeesian, I can see why feminist critiques of pop culture can make even well-meaning men uncomfortable. As an artist and a creative writer, I've received more than my share of flak for presenting my female characters in a very heterosexual male gaze (e.g. making them nubile and scantily clad). Any media that portrays women in a sexualized manner may get charged with sexist objectification regardless of the artists' intentions. Mind you, these critics do not necessarily represent feminists as a whole, but they are vocal enough to ruin feminism's image in many heterosexual male minds.
Either they do represent feminists as a whole, or the first section I've quoted needs a rewrite. But only if you desire credibility.
sliqua-jcooter
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08 Dec 2013, 1:06 am
LKL wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what do you think that Sarkeesian is missing, in general, that a 'true gamer' would understand? Do you apply the 'you must be an expert in x in order to criticize topic x' to other fields, or just when you disagree with the criticism?
She is a self-proclaimed media critic. Would you listen to Roger Ebert review a movie that he hasn't seen?
But, to answer your question - yes. When you talk about something, you'd better be able to actually demonstrate that you know what the eff you're talking about.
And, for the record, I don't disagree with anything Sarkeesian says - I just have huge problems with her making these arguments because her inexperience with the subject matter (and the people that make up the gamer culture that I'm presuming are her audience) makes her argument completely ineffective.
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sliqua-jcooter
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08 Dec 2013, 1:34 am
I realize now that I didn't explicitly answer your first question.
There are many things that she's missing by not being a part of the gamer culture that is seriously hurting her message, but in general it boils down to a lack of credibility. She's given gamers no reason to trust her, no indication that she actually likes games and is making her argument in the name of improving gaming as a whole and not just blindly criticizing games for their sexist and misogynist content - which indirectly criticizes the gamers that like these games as being sexist or misogynist or tolerant of sexism or misogyny. Her little disclaimer at the beginning of her videos doesn't help.
There are a couple of things specifically that she's missing that are not helping that I can think of:
1) She takes great pains to make the point numerous times in her videos that the sexist content in media, and especially video games enables and encourages sexist behavior in the people playing those games.
Gamers have a knee-jerk negative reaction to this line of logic because of the fight against parents' groups and idiotic lawyers from Florida that have spent the past few decades trying to demonize violence in video games under similar logic that they enable and encourage violent behavior in the players of those games.
This argument, in particular, is idiotic - because it's the least pernicious effect of the problem of sexism in video games. The far larger, uglier problem is that misogyny in video games actively discourages female players from enjoying games - and, as a result - female developers and artists from developing games.
2) From a gamer's perspective, she spends basically all of her time decrying these games for their sexist and misogynist content (including very popular games that people seriously love), and then does nothing to highlight the positive in the industry. There's no "light at the end of the tunnel".
3) She fails to recognize and address that there is always an exception to the rule, and acknowledge that there are games out there that employ some of the tropes that she vilifies, and still produce seriously excellent results that you would be absolutely out of your mind to criticize as sexist or misogynistic. The best example I can come up with would be the Starcraft series of games, where
Quote:
FAIR WARNING! MASSIVE SPOILER ALERTS FOLLOW!
Mengsk uses Psi-Emitters on Tarsonis to lure the Zerg, while simultaneously sending Sarah Kerrigan to hold off the Protoss, eventually abandoning her on the planet to die - except she's taken by the Zerg and transformed into the Queen of Blades.
This act sets Mengsk up as the main antagonist for Jim Raynor - and much of what he does later in the game is motivated by revenge on Mengsk. For her part, Kerrigan as the Queen of Blades becomes a major villain in the series and develops this weird love-hate relationship with Raynor, until he ultimately defeats her and removes the Zerg infestation, turning her back into Kerrigan (and also learning that she's destined to save the universe). But then she gets her own game where she re-takes control of the Zerg, tries to figure out more about this prophecy thing, and ultimately sacrifices her chance at love with Raynor and re-infests herself because that's the only way she can save the universe.
It's a complicated story (and this is only one of the main storylines) - but the point is that they employ the damsel trope to create this conflict with Kerrigan, Raynor and Mengsk that basically carries the entire rest of the story. And she's not a token chick either, because there are a few other secondary characters who also play strong female characters that contribute heavily to the story (Nova and Raszagal come to mind).
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08 Dec 2013, 5:56 pm
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7nO9F7okbo[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=973QyeOZSu4[/youtube]
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sliqua-jcooter
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08 Dec 2013, 8:00 pm
I can post videos too - and much better ones at that.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGFWQEQUT5g[/youtube]
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08 Dec 2013, 8:41 pm
adifferentname wrote:
Jono wrote:
?! I don't see how that follows. I could of sworn that I specifically said in a previous post that it was unfair to label the whole gaming community as misogynistic. And who's Krista Milburn anyway? I haven't heard about her.
I'm simply stating the obvious - that those are the only two viable options when considering the source of abuse aimed at her kickstarter video. This wasn't a coordinated backlash by the gaming community, as she continues to claim.
It still doesn't follow. You were talking about generalising the actions of a minority of a group to the whole group and I never did that. I don't see what with 4chan either, only that it's a minority.
adifferentname wrote:
Quote:
Regardless of my ignorance about 4chan, I know about the reddit source and most of it comes from people in the Men's Rights subreddit. So, that actually supports what I've seen regarding MRA's being partly behind it. The Gaming subreddit may of had threads discussing her videos, like this one, but I don't think they would've openly discussed harassing her, unlike what the Men's Rights one seems to do.
I'm perfectly willing to accept that some MRA's have taken part in online trolling vs Sarkeesian, but can we really draw any conclusions from MRA's vs Feminists attacking each other on the internet (or indeed elsewhere) other than they simply are not ever going to get along?
Well, if you simply dislike what someone is saying or their political views then this usually doesn't extend to the justification of the kind of harassment that Sarkeesian has received. It tells us a great deal about those MRA's that are responsible.
adifferentname wrote:
Quote:
I tell you what, show me some specific criticisms that that you think are good which some people have made, then I'll try to explain why they miss the point, or not, depending on whether they are valid. Sephardic-Male has already posted that video of Jordan Owen criticising her most recent video. However, although I've watched the whole thing and do think that most of it missing the point, that video is simply too long for me to go through all of it and give counterarguments to all of them.
Jordan Owen presented a reasonable, if simplistic response to what is, after all, a simplistic video. While watching it, I picked out maybe a handful of points he made that I disagreed with, but overall I felt he hit the mark adequately enough.
He tried to pick apart, sentence by sentence, Anita's videos while watching it. However, just about every rebuttal single missed the main point that she was making in that segment except for what he had said about Adam and Eve towards the end of his video, which really has nothing to do her arguments.
adifferentname wrote:
On the credibility of Sarkeesian - of paramount importance when establishing her motives:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcPIu3sDkEw[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcPIu3sDkEw[/youtube]
The first video that this guy posted, he admitted was a troll video. In addition, none of this really convinces me that Anita is not a gamer and it has nothing to arguments that she is making in her videos. I would prefer it if people stop bringing this up and address her arguments instead because this is irrelevant.
adifferentname wrote:
The Amazing Atheist on "Damsel in Distress: Part 2":
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25o0EZiogw0[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25o0EZiogw0[/youtube]
Ok, so TJ (aka The Amazing Atheist) basically talks about Campbell's monomyth and uses it to defend the Damsel in Distress trope as simply an easy plot device utilising the trope. Now, the monomyth is an interesting topic on it's own, it came up in a thread that I posted a few months in the Television, Film and Video section that compared Lord of the Rings and Star Wars. The thing is, setting aside that the Damsel in Distress is a bit of a lazy and simplistic way to follow the monomyth, stories do not always have to follow it exactly. For example, I noted in that other thread that Lord of the Rings deviated from it slightly when the ring was destroyed that good prevailed by Gollum doing something evil, not by Frodo (the main hero), doing something good. That's not the main problem with TJ's rebuttal though. TJ's first mistake in the video is when he said that the main reason why the loved one that the hero fights for is female is because the main consumers of the games are men and this is incorrect for 2 reasons. Firstly, it's wrong because actual statistics show that 46% of all games are purchased by women, so that's high enough to also keep a female audience in mind. Secondly, it's wrong because the Damsel in Distress trope is much much older than video games and exists in most other media as well, therefore the target audience for video games cannot be considered the only reason why the trope exists. The other problem with TJ's argument is that he seems to suggest that Sarkeesian is saying that the very act of a character in video game needing help is disempowering that character but this is actually a bit of a strawman. In fact, she even says in her video that there's nothing wrong with a character in a video game needing help. The problem comes in when the character's only existence in the story is basically a goal for the protagonist with no agency of her own.
adifferentname wrote:
Quote:
Hmm, the problem that I have with Euthanised Damsel has got nothing to do with the developer wanting to condone anything, that's besides the point. The problem that I have with with it is that the player's character is forced to kill the damsel in the end even though via the in-game story it's someone that he supposedly loves as well as the fact that the killing is portrayed as a good thing. The usual argument to defend it is that it depends on context and that there's usually a backstory where it seems to be justified. However, regardless of the backstory, it is still the player's character that pulls the trigger and I hate it and find it distasteful when that happens, especially when it's a character that you get to know early on in the game and that the character is completely innocent.
Like I said, I don't agree with your preference but there's nothing wrong with having different tastes when it comes to the arts. Your problem with "Euthanised Damsel" is certainly not a gender issue, it's a creative decision making issue. If the writer of a game makes such a creative decision then that is their right, regardless whether we agree with it. They're telling a story for the purposes of entertaining an audience, not trying to soothe the ruffled feathers of special interest political groups. This reminds me of the Aeris/Aerith backlash with Final Fantasy VII, with millions of fans choosing to re-insert her after dying by using cheat-code devices.
Uh no, it's not the same as the Final Fantasy VII scene. I'm not arguing that there should always be a happy ending, I just don't like it when the player character is forced to kill the damsel, regardless of the context.
adifferentname wrote:
Quote:
I don't necessarily want to impose political beliefs on anyone else but I think that the euthanised damsel trope is horrible extremely bad storytelling. Oh, and since I think that video games are a form of art, then one can criticise them just like any other form of media including television and media. I doubt that Anita Sarkesian has any power to force her views on anyone. If she influences the game industry it would be because she has some support from developers.
This is where you and Sarkeesian differ. She is attempting to force her political views onto an artform that she doesn't even seem to acknowledge as legitimate, let alone know much about.
She's a media critic. She has also critiqued portrayals in sci-fi, TV, movies and even gender marketed toys. How is this inconsistent and how is that forcing her political views on others?
adifferentname wrote:
Quote:
Well, some of them maybe teenagers but I don't know if the majority of them have an immature understanding of the world. Maybe some of them are just reclusive.
I suggest that all teenagers have an immature understanding of the world, but it's really not important to the discussion. Gamers as a whole have been held to task for the actions of a minority (and indeed, the actions of non-gamers). This is simply unacceptable.
Non-gamers? Yes, it's unfair to hold all gamers responsible for her harassment.
adifferentname wrote:
Quote:
I've seen few threads about her on the internet that weren't locked but ended normally and people just lost interest. I don't think that that will happen to this thread though. Already, it got buried under a number of other threads after I hadn't responded to you for just over a day.
Perhaps there's just insufficient interest in video games amongst the PPR regulars. For that reason, this thread may well be better off in the Video Games sub-forum, though I doubt the discussion would fit in with the general tone there. It does seem to be staying on page 1 though.
It's not a lack of interest. I was just saying that I don't that this thread will end up being locked because of personal attacks and if anything, it will just end up abandoned. At least, I haven't yet seen evidence of that.
08 Dec 2013, 8:48 pm
sliqua-jcooter wrote:
I realize now that I didn't explicitly answer your first question.
There are many things that she's missing by not being a part of the gamer culture that is seriously hurting her message, but in general it boils down to a lack of credibility. She's given gamers no reason to trust her, no indication that she actually likes games and is making her argument in the name of improving gaming as a whole and not just blindly criticizing games for their sexist and misogynist content - which indirectly criticizes the gamers that like these games as being sexist or misogynist or tolerant of sexism or misogyny. Her little disclaimer at the beginning of her videos doesn't help.
There are a couple of things specifically that she's missing that are not helping that I can think of:
1) She takes great pains to make the point numerous times in her videos that the sexist content in media, and especially video games enables and encourages sexist behavior in the people playing those games.
Gamers have a knee-jerk negative reaction to this line of logic because of the fight against parents' groups and idiotic lawyers from Florida that have spent the past few decades trying to demonize violence in video games under similar logic that they enable and encourage violent behavior in the players of those games.
This argument, in particular, is idiotic - because it's the least pernicious effect of the problem of sexism in video games. The far larger, uglier problem is that misogyny in video games actively discourages female players from enjoying games - and, as a result - female developers and artists from developing games.
2) From a gamer's perspective, she spends basically all of her time decrying these games for their sexist and misogynist content (including very popular games that people seriously love), and then does nothing to highlight the positive in the industry. There's no "light at the end of the tunnel".
3) She fails to recognize and address that there is always an exception to the rule, and acknowledge that there are games out there that employ some of the tropes that she vilifies, and still produce seriously excellent results that you would be absolutely out of your mind to criticize as sexist or misogynistic. The best example I can come up with would be the Starcraft series of games, where
Mengsk uses Psi-Emitters on Tarsonis to lure the Zerg, while simultaneously sending Sarah Kerrigan to hold off the Protoss, eventually abandoning her on the planet to die - except she's taken by the Zerg and transformed into the Queen of Blades.
This act sets Mengsk up as the main antagonist for Jim Raynor - and much of what he does later in the game is motivated by revenge on Mengsk. For her part, Kerrigan as the Queen of Blades becomes a major villain in the series and develops this weird love-hate relationship with Raynor, until he ultimately defeats her and removes the Zerg infestation, turning her back into Kerrigan (and also learning that she's destined to save the universe). But then she gets her own game where she re-takes control of the Zerg, tries to figure out more about this prophecy thing, and ultimately sacrifices her chance at love with Raynor and re-infests herself because that's the only way she can save the universe.
It's a complicated story (and this is only one of the main storylines) - but the point is that they employ the damsel trope to create this conflict with Kerrigan, Raynor and Mengsk that basically carries the entire rest of the story. And she's not a token chick either, because there are a few other secondary characters who also play strong female characters that contribute heavily to the story (Nova and Raszagal come to mind).
There are many things that she's missing by not being a part of the gamer culture that is seriously hurting her message, but in general it boils down to a lack of credibility. She's given gamers no reason to trust her, no indication that she actually likes games and is making her argument in the name of improving gaming as a whole and not just blindly criticizing games for their sexist and misogynist content - which indirectly criticizes the gamers that like these games as being sexist or misogynist or tolerant of sexism or misogyny. Her little disclaimer at the beginning of her videos doesn't help.
There are a couple of things specifically that she's missing that are not helping that I can think of:
1) She takes great pains to make the point numerous times in her videos that the sexist content in media, and especially video games enables and encourages sexist behavior in the people playing those games.
Gamers have a knee-jerk negative reaction to this line of logic because of the fight against parents' groups and idiotic lawyers from Florida that have spent the past few decades trying to demonize violence in video games under similar logic that they enable and encourage violent behavior in the players of those games.
This argument, in particular, is idiotic - because it's the least pernicious effect of the problem of sexism in video games. The far larger, uglier problem is that misogyny in video games actively discourages female players from enjoying games - and, as a result - female developers and artists from developing games.
2) From a gamer's perspective, she spends basically all of her time decrying these games for their sexist and misogynist content (including very popular games that people seriously love), and then does nothing to highlight the positive in the industry. There's no "light at the end of the tunnel".
3) She fails to recognize and address that there is always an exception to the rule, and acknowledge that there are games out there that employ some of the tropes that she vilifies, and still produce seriously excellent results that you would be absolutely out of your mind to criticize as sexist or misogynistic. The best example I can come up with would be the Starcraft series of games, where
Quote:
FAIR WARNING! MASSIVE SPOILER ALERTS FOLLOW!
Mengsk uses Psi-Emitters on Tarsonis to lure the Zerg, while simultaneously sending Sarah Kerrigan to hold off the Protoss, eventually abandoning her on the planet to die - except she's taken by the Zerg and transformed into the Queen of Blades.
This act sets Mengsk up as the main antagonist for Jim Raynor - and much of what he does later in the game is motivated by revenge on Mengsk. For her part, Kerrigan as the Queen of Blades becomes a major villain in the series and develops this weird love-hate relationship with Raynor, until he ultimately defeats her and removes the Zerg infestation, turning her back into Kerrigan (and also learning that she's destined to save the universe). But then she gets her own game where she re-takes control of the Zerg, tries to figure out more about this prophecy thing, and ultimately sacrifices her chance at love with Raynor and re-infests herself because that's the only way she can save the universe.
It's a complicated story (and this is only one of the main storylines) - but the point is that they employ the damsel trope to create this conflict with Kerrigan, Raynor and Mengsk that basically carries the entire rest of the story. And she's not a token chick either, because there are a few other secondary characters who also play strong female characters that contribute heavily to the story (Nova and Raszagal come to mind).
In that case, I agree with you. I'm glad that you've used the Starcraft series as an example because that's one of my favourite series. There are also other examples where the Damsel in Distress trope turned out well though, for example the storyline in King's Quest VI: Heir Today, Gone Tomorrow.
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08 Dec 2013, 8:55 pm
One thing I would ask is for people quoting my post above to exclude the spoilers bit from their quotes - that way it makes it easier for people to ignore if they don't actually want to read my Starcraft in 60 seconds synopsis.
But to add another example to that, I would put Mass Effect out there as an example of a game that executed the Ms. Male Character trope extremely well. Actually, to the point that the only thing Sarkeesian can say about it is that the marketing effort was unbalanced.
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08 Dec 2013, 9:10 pm
They should make princess mononoke the videogame. 
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08 Dec 2013, 9:40 pm
AspieOtaku wrote:
They should make princess mononoke the videogame.
Personally, I think that literally taking the plot for the film and creating a game out of it would be somewhat boring - and taking the characters and creating an entirely new adventure would essentially be a Final Fantasy game.
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