Red Death - The Horrors Of Communism

Page 8 of 11 [ 166 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,138
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

21 Feb 2014, 12:58 am

appletheclown wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Actually we have a mixed economy, its largely capitalist with a bit of socialism thrown in....the socialism being the regulations that require things like safe working conditions, compensation for injuries on the job, lack of child labor and things like having a social safety network or welfare.

Also communism isn't simply an economic model....and it calls for the community/people having ownership of the means of production and goods as well as a classless society. Not some totalitarian dictatorship that deprives citizens of basic needs while living in much more wealth than the people have.

And since it is still supposed to be a 'classless' society I don't think that excludes government....pretty sure marx didn't envision a class in poverty and a very wealth ruling class oppressing them as communism. Totalitarian Communism is a perversion of communism.

Socialism isn't the regulations on child labor and unsafe working conditions, the people largely responsible for that are journalists and sheer forbearance.

I was not meaning that is socialism, however those are more or less socialist type policies when the government creates regulations for the wellbeing of the people.

appletheclown wrote:

Unions and strikes are sh***y for everyone who isn't on strike. I got left on a train in the middle of nowhere because some union arse decided he didn't have to do his job. Unions and strikes can shove it. All they do is make the workers into whiny drama queens who sass the boss. Complete disregard for the customer. Clinton did a better job being a husband.

Also I wasn't talking about unions per say...I was talking about general policies that regulate buisiness/labor and welfare.

_________________
Eat the rich, feed the poor. No not literally idiot, cannibalism is gross.

Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,138
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

21 Feb 2014, 1:05 am

appletheclown wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

appletheclown wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Socialism isn't the regulations on child labor and unsafe working conditions, the people largely responsible for that are journalists and sheer forbearance.

Unions and strikes are sh***y for everyone who isn't on strike. I got left on a train in the middle of nowhere because some union arse decided he didn't have to do his job. Unions and strikes can shove it. All they do is make the workers into whiny drama queens who sass the boss. Complete disregard for the customer. Clinton did a better job being a husband.

its called class struggle. The interests of management and workers are irreconcilable.

If workers are facing reducing wages or declining working conditions they have no recourse but to strike. Their allegiances aren't to the customers. If services are curtailed because of strikes, i don't blame the workers I blame the management that provoked the strike in the first place because more often than not its the product of penny pinching and profit orientated decisions rather than the greater good.

Nobody forced them to do sh**!

BOOHOO! This attitude of disregard for the customer and complete entitlement is a bunch of hysterical bs!

All unions ever do is fight for them selves, and for what, NOTHING!

How many effing regulations do these Whine Arse™s need to make sure they don't forget to wear a helmet?

Huh, I got a broken leg because I didn't look the hell where I was going...UNIONS HELLLPPPP,THE RICH PEOPLE MADE ME STUPID, GIMMIE MONEY!! !!

Its a never ending group of perpetual quitters who do nothing for the customer unless they feel like it get them more money.
That is all unions are. Need good working conditions cause your a sissy? Call an effing representative!! !! !! The consumer doesn't have time for your bs!! !

Well damn, don't get your panties all up in a bunch....my goodness, I suppose people should just work for any sh*tty wage under any conditions no matter how horrible and not b*tch lest they upset their bosses. Fighting for a wage that one can live on, and improved working conditions how dare they :roll:

_________________
Eat the rich, feed the poor. No not literally idiot, cannibalism is gross.

Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,138
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

21 Feb 2014, 1:10 am

appletheclown wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

I come from a union household, and I can tell you they don't make workers "into whiny drama queens who sass the boss." It wasn't just journalists who had accomplished workers rights, but rather, it was by and large guys like my Dad and Grandfather who had practiced their right as Americans to protest to get what they want. You know why wages have been stagnating, why benefits have been cut, and why companies have gotten away with outsourcing jobs in this country? Because unions have been made out to be the bad guys, and have seen their influence diminish.

Forget it, appletheclown is probably a bosses child. He is so far up their backsides he is practically chewing their caviar and lobster.

Its like to trying to debate industrial relations with Ayn Rand or the guy off the monopoly logo.

The hyperbole and dramaticism of opening thread subject matter says it all really.

HA! Your calling me rich! This is becoming entertaining! Although, I do recall my great aunt owning a chemical lab that made circuits for missiles, my grandfather started as a machinist, then became an engineer, and that my great grandfather was a machinist for 44 years straight.
So maybe I'm not poor, but I'm not some pushover who doesn't know how to weld, or is afraid of dangerous working conditions.
Machining is dangerous inherently.

Someone is a pushover if they don't know how to weld? And why should working conditions be dangerous where it can be avoided?

_________________
Eat the rich, feed the poor. No not literally idiot, cannibalism is gross.

TheGoggles
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 20 Oct 2013
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,060

21 Feb 2014, 2:29 am

appletheclown wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

appletheclown wrote:

Nobody forced them to do sh**!

yes, the old libertarian cannard of ''if you don't like it, you can quit''. The freedom of choice under a free market, especially one under the current climate is a fallacy.

You can scarcely quit in an environment where you have 5 or more unemployed individuals chasing the same job, and especially not in the USA when you may have your entitlement to medical treatment and that of your family attached to your job.

appletheclown wrote:

BOOHOO! This attitude of disregard for the customer and complete entitlement is a bunch of hysterical bs!

Screw the customer. If workers don't stand up for themselves, then the conditions of their workplace will deteriorate. The reason why workers have it better in the west as opposed to sweatshops in south east asia isnt the inherent 'niceness' of western employers, it is the tradition of western workers unionising and sticking up for themselves.

Next time you are enjoying your saturday off work, or getting paid time off, you have a union shop steward to thank for that.

I'm going to be Machinist! I'm still not going to be in any effing union! I love dirt, fumes, metal, and arcing that can kill!

This is a bunch of bs.

2 hardcore 5 me.

Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,158
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

21 Feb 2014, 2:30 am

^^^
You beat me to the punch with that response, sweatleaf.

_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Kurgan
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Apr 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,132
Location: Scandinavia

21 Feb 2014, 4:48 am

TheGoggles wrote:

You know, it's is possible to say your nation is one thing for propaganda purposes while it's actually something else entirely. For instance, the Nazi Party. They promised socialist policies and a close relationship to the Catholic Church. Then they turned around and screwed over the working class and the Church was just used for propaganda purposes (which was fairly successful, since a number of priests were willing participants).

Actual Communism is supposed to place the means of production in the hands of the workers, and the government is just supposed to make sure assets are properly distributed and not consolidated in one place. Stalin and Kim Il-Sung promised this, and then proceeded to consolidate all of the wealth within the Party elites and their friends. Which is pretty much what capitalist society does without apology.

A free market is a prerequisite for capitalism; it doesn't matter if there is an elite or not. Like I said: Karl Marx said that despotism could be unavoidable during the first phase, and that despotism itself didn't contradict his theories.

Quote:

Wealthy=/=A bastion of human rights

Chile is far better of than both Venezuela and Cuba in terms of human rights.

Kurgan
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Apr 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,132
Location: Scandinavia

21 Feb 2014, 4:50 am

RushKing wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

RushKing wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

I'm well aware of the fact that Karl Marx never encouraged violence. Violence is an indirect consequence of communism, though, and it has been present in absolutely every large scale attempt at communism. Thus, we can conclude that communism doesn't work. People from the petite-burgeois who all of a sudden get absolute power, aren't able to keep their hands away from the cookie jar.

Communism will happen when there is no more cookies to grab. (or mabye nothing but small irrelevant crumbs) When people are done with authoritarianism. Power hungry have no power to obtain. Don't become a cookie crumb.

Revolutions do not necessarily reward those motivated by altruism; at least not in the case of collectivist ideologies. If there are no cookies to grab, then communism is essentially just equal sharing of misery.

Collectivism and individualism are misnomers, they both depend on each other. Micromanaging is not freedom. In the process of becoming a slave master; you enslave yourself. My freedom depends on the freedom of others.

Ruling your own life is freedom. My freedom should end where the next person's freedom begins.

LKL
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

21 Feb 2014, 4:54 am

Kurgan wrote:

LKL wrote:

Yes, let's look at Venezuela, shall we?
http://www.pri.org/stories/2011-07-05/h ... -venezuela
Maybe the oil money could be used more efficiently, but the people of Venezuela wouldn't be seeing a cent of it if Chavez hadn't nationalized the petroleum industry.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-0 ... havez.html

http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/7513

Yes, they have problems, but you have to ignore more than half of what Chavez did to pretend that he was bad for the country as a whole.

Hugo Chavez didn't achieve anything that any person couldn't do in a typical oil boom. Even if economic growth was enough to forgive his sins (which it isn't), it would also mean that Augusto Pinochet was a hero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse

Now that Chavez is gone, Venezuela seems to be going to hell in a hand basket.

Kurgan
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Apr 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,132
Location: Scandinavia

21 Feb 2014, 5:00 am

LKL wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

LKL wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse

What's peculiar, is that the resource curse mostly affects left-wing countries (with the USSR being the perfect example). At the end of the day, Chavez didn't do anything that Batista or Pinochet didn't do better. Lastly, the GDP of Venezuela is actually dropping, as we speak.

LKL
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

21 Feb 2014, 5:42 am

Venezuela is going to hell in a hand basket as we speak, but I don't think that you can really claim that the resource curse affects left-wing governments, except that those were the ones most likely to have their democratically elected governments overthrown in CIA-staged coups for American fruit/oil/other resource extractive companies.

Kurgan
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Apr 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,132
Location: Scandinavia

21 Feb 2014, 6:00 am

LKL wrote:

Actually, the coup in Chile was one of the reasons Nixon had to resign (Watergate was just the final straw). The relationship between the Pinochet government and the US government cooled down rapidly after Gerald Ford took over. Even though Pinochet was a tyrant, he nevertheless made sure that Chile grew; if you overlook the economic freedom (since politics after all are more than just left vs. right), he was not that different from Fidel Castro, who didn't manage to continue the rapid growth Batista started.

drh1138
Velociraptor

Joined: 2 Dec 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 498

21 Feb 2014, 6:02 am

LKL wrote:

Now that Chavez is gone, Venezuela seems to be going to hell in a hand basket.

Gee, aren't the after-effects of personality cults just terrible? :lol:

Kurgan
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Apr 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,132
Location: Scandinavia

21 Feb 2014, 6:04 am

The decline of Venezuela started in 2008, when Chavez was still alive.

LKL
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

21 Feb 2014, 7:16 am

drh1138 wrote:

LKL wrote:

Now that Chavez is gone, Venezuela seems to be going to hell in a hand basket.

Gee, aren't the after-effects of personality cults just terrible? :lol:

Funny how you only seem to notice that with a left-wing autocrat.

TheGoggles
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 20 Oct 2013
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,060

21 Feb 2014, 11:00 am

Kurgan wrote:

LKL wrote:

Well, he may have been a mass-murdering psychopath, but at least he made the trains run on time!

DoodleDoo
Deinonychus

Joined: 31 Oct 2011
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 347
Location: SoCal/Los Angeles

21 Feb 2014, 12:44 pm

http://devilsexcrement.com/ This is a good site for the current goings on, that is day to day living inside Venezuala.

Cávisimo, a variant of Marxism, is a little different. Like it encourages what I would call the gang banger or thug culture at a young age. This naturally displaces any formal education. So you wind up with a million little fiefdoms run by gun toting teenagers fighting over a small area and girls. I see this as a form of control keeping the populace dumb, disorganize and fighting each other from a very young age therefore they can do little to threaten Cávisimo's control.

You can look at the actual numbers of dead under Chávez vs Pinochet, there is a difference.
In Venezuala approx 3 years of homicides under Chávez equals all deaths under Pinochet. Under Chávez not factored in are the frequent armed robberies, carjackings, kidnappings and extortion's.

Milton Friedman - Pinochet And Chile
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzgMNLtLJ2k[/youtube]

Last edited by DoodleDoo on 21 Feb 2014, 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Page 8 of 11 [ 166 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 Next

Jump to:

Red Death - The Horrors Of Communism Post Reply New Topic

Red Death - The Horrors Of Communism