Josh Duggar and Ashley Madison.

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It is not nurturing to knowingly expose your children to an incestuous pedophile who solicits rough sex with porn stars.

Logic tells me that Josh is incapable of nurturing anyone let alone his kids until he has his own issues addressed. One has to be rational about this and not succumb to mom and pop nostalgia. These kids need safety to grown as sovereign beings and not sexualised surrogates. If he does not confront his demons and put them to rest, I fear for his daughters.

My ex-wife and I waited until the kids were a certain age before we divorced. Even then they were never able to accept the new man as their father. I think he did his best to please them and take on the role, but he could never be me.

Who said it was? What I am addressing in this thread is the mentality that American society has adopted; Josh, and others like him, are hopelessly damaged so it's fine to kick them out the door and let them off the hook after they go and produce numerous kids. There are far too many situations like this and believe me, society does NOT feel the need to swoop in and fix them. Society will NOT do it and if you think it will, you are lying to yourself. The kids suffer irreparable harm when faced with the dissolution of their family. Give Josh a lobotomy if you have to but the goal should be him returning to raise those kids, not just fork over money every month. Society should not accept them being allowed to go away and do whatever, practically forgetting the fact they produced kids, as being an option. Besides, he will most likely just find another woman or women and start impregnating them.

It's delusional to believe a compassionate society full of virtuous humans is waiting in the wings to rescue every child from a non existent or dysfunctional family. The opposite is, in fact, reality. People, for the most part, are either indifferent or worse than Josh Duggar types ready for an opportunity to take advantage of the vulnerable, and yes, kids lacking the family unit are seen as exceptionally vulnerable to these types, and many of these are actually worse than Josh Duggar. The kids from these situations become aware they are vulnerable early and develop a mistrust and hypervigilance since they believe they alone are responsible for their well being and must constantly be on guard since few care about protecting them. It's the actual parents who are the most inclined to protect their own children. So your ideals are lofty but simply lacking in reality. You think remove the bad apple and all will be alright forevermore when it is far more complicated than merely amputating the infected limb.

There are handfuls of genuinely virtuous people willing to help but they are few and far between, overwhelmed in many cases, suffering burnout and cynicism, eventually.

The entire situation is evil so helping the birth parents be better parents is actually the lesser of all the evils.

It's all-too-easy for someone who desires to abdicate their parental responsibilities to say, look at me, I am hopelessly damaged! Kick me to the curb and let me go be with the porn stars and others like me then I can be free of all these kids I created and have fun for the rest of my life. I don't have to grow up and take responsibility for the choices I made when I decided I was going to produce offspring with another person. So appearing as damaged as possible is quite an incentive to such a minded person and if society agrees with them, there's no reason to ever change. They are out of the picture. Society has given them permission and said, oh you go on. It's in the best interest of the children for you to go away and disappear from everyone's lives! Well, it's not in their best interest. It's in the best interest of the delinquent parent because then they are free of their duties but it's definitely not in the best interest of the partner stuck raising the kids alone or the kids.

I said, "It is not nurturing to knowingly expose your children to an incestuous pedophile who solicits rough sex with porn stars."
You said, "Who said it was?"
Then you said, "...the goal should be him returning to raise those kids"

This is a contradiction. Either you want these children raised by him, or you don't.
He will never not be what he is.

Ana

I am certainly not advocating that Josh be taken out of financially providing for his kids. That is an entirely separate issue. But his proximity to the kids whilst his own issues are not resolved is universally stupid, IMHO.

Look you two, for one thing, the public doesn't know what Josh Duggar is like with his kids. You cannot assume he has abused them. He was vile as a teenager but you can't assume he has done something to his kids. Until someone makes that accusation and evidence is gathered, he is innocent until proven guilty. Isn't that how the justice system works?
As for the porn star, you have her version of it but for all we know, it could have just been an affair which lots of married people have. Just because he went and had sex with this porn star doesn't mean he is raping his wife and abusing his kids. It's vile that he cheated on his wife, true, but cheating on spouses isn't illegal.

It's obvious the situation is far from ideal but until there's actual proof he is harming his children and someone comes forth and tells the police about it and there's evidence, you cannot take this man away from his kids ONLY because he cheated on his wife. If he does have some kind of problem yes he should be treated and if he cannot be trusted alone with is kids, he should be supervised but it would be to the complete detriment of his children if he could not help with them in some way. Four kids are a lot of responsibility for one person, his wife, to handle alone. She needs help and the father is the best candidate to provide that help. It's obvious those kids have been well cared for. They look happy and healthy in all their pictures. So please don't make assumptions about his relationship with his kids and don't advocate dissolving their family without evidence he is in fact abusing them because you are advocating something incredibly insidious and psychologically detrimental be done when you have nothing substantial to base it on, just rumors.

I'm not assuming he has abused them. I'm saying that past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior. This is a man who has molested children in the past - children who were closely related to him.



Because no one can smile for a photo unless they have a wonderful life?


Look, your position is that you'd let your children be raised in a home with a father who had molested his own sisters, was addicted to porn, and liked to pay porn stars for rough sex. That, to you, is preferable to a single-parent home. As I can never, ever agree with that position, I'm done here.

He is harming his children simply by having an affair.

Either he is a pedophile or he was acting out what he was taught (he may have been abused himself and didn't realize what he was doing was wrong due to his young age???? possible but I just don't buy it). If he is in fact a pedophile there is no happy ending here. Pedophiles really should not have kids. Sorry, but they shouldn't. In any case, he's still a broken man.

Suppose he develops an attraction towards his kids. Even if he keeps his hands off of them, kids are very intuitive and they are going to pick up on mixed messages.

Josh Duggar has hopefully left his child molestation days behind him. I cannot agree with adultery but at least he does prefer adult women these days. Why are people so unforgiving. Incest is a far bigger problem that most people suppose. It is hidden. Adultery is the big cause of marriage break down. In the UK marriage is out of fashion, although people still have children, very often without a caring father. They do not have a male role model.

I don't know what's going on with Josh right now, I've never even seen the programme. Is he willing to turn away from his immoral ways? If he is then he should be given the opportunity to make a new start. Otherwise childen should be taken away from many millions of parents. There is no way to cope with that situation. Why just target one man?

Western society is in a mess and lets not blame it all on the rich people.

It's because I have been raised in a single parent home without a relationship with a father so I can tell you without a doubt it is really horrible to be raised that way.

I know all these sins Josh Duggar has committed they are public knowledge but there's nothing here that says he has molested or abused his kids so if he has a good relationship with them it would harm his children so much to lose that relationship with their father. That is the truth! I am looking out for what's important to these kids. They don't understand all this stuff. The only thing they know is when their father is around being supportive and that's the need they have. So focus on this instead of harming them by destroying the relationship they have with their parent.
You cannot destroy the good relationship, if it exists, based on all this other stuff. We don't know if it exists, but if it does, it would be far worse to destroy it because he cheated and molested relatives as a teen. I know it's difficult to read but what I am saying is in the best interest of his kids. If he hasn't harmed them and has a good relationship with them, it should continue as it always has and everyone involved should do everything in their power to be sure these kids have a right to this relationship and not just say, Josh cheated on his wife and he molested as a teenager so that's enough to say forget it, you will never see your father again, even though he's done nothing to you personally.
Taking away their father will harm them incredibly. It should be the last option.

And as far as paying for rough sex, you don't know if he has in fact paid for that or just a session with an adult entertainer. You have one person saying that's the case but that's not proof. It could just be he paid her for sex and that was that. If I was the one married to him I would be disgusted learning this about my husband but I would hardly be alone as many husbands cheat on their wives and most of them still get to see their children and participate in raising them.

As for the other story about a woman from Ashley Madison having unprotected sex, it sounds very strange, in this day and age, a woman would meet a man online and go have sex without any condoms on. That doesn't even sound realistic. So how do you know that's even true? Even the part about the porn star having sex without protection sounds utterly bogus. She would be putting her career on the line since the porn industry routinely tests them for stds before each filming. So I have my doubts this woman would be dumb enough to take a risk like that. She has them wear condoms every time and has it down to a science because she doesn't want to end up with STDs.

So these people with stories about unprotected sex are dubious at best. I wouldn't believe every word out of their mouths. Still, it's likely he did cheat though.

Last edited by ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo on 05 Sep 2015, 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

I believe in him committing a crime then being prosecuted based on the evidence. It's the way the justice system works. So if he does something to his kids, someone reports it and he goes to trial for it and the jury determines if he is guilty and if he is, he gets sentenced and pays for what he has done.

Yeah, the guy has a bad character, but, so far, no one has said he's done anything to his kids. So I don't believe in assuming he has done something to them.

If all he is doing is cheating and looking at porn, so many men in America are doing the exact same thing as I type this. Are we going to take all these men away from their kids and then assume society will graciously step in and raise them? I have been in a single parent home without a father since the age of four, I can tell you, beyond a shadow if a doubt, society doesn't give a shi*t about kids without fathers. So if we all assume society is going to put the bandaid on the wound, then we are only deceiving ourselves.

I'll explain my motivation for posting. My firm belief has always been, due to nearly a lifetime of experience, if you are going to have kids, be serious about raising them. So I do not support America's lackadaisical attitude toward family and raising children, one of convenience that centers on the parents and whatever immaturity or drama they are suffering at the moment, and the whims such conditions inspire, at the expense of their children. I take life very seriously and when you bring life into this world, it should be your first priority and I feel theory of evolution backs my belief up since your children are your genes! Everyone SHOULD feel this way and have this instinct. A lot of people don't seem to have it and it mystifies me why that is. Why would you work against your own progeny, if the theory of evolution is indeed true? Doesn't make sense to me.

So, I do what I can to promote people taking responsibility for their own children whenever I can. I get that message out. Either take responsibility for raising them or simply don't have any. Take birth control because these are real lives we are talking about. Real people with real needs. It's not just a stupid game. Whenever I see prominent celebrities acting like this and the public screaming to dissolve families, I remind them, society isn't going to fill in for absent parents, and statistics back this up. Americans are very reluctant to do this and act as if it's the biggest imposition and chore in the world to provide what parents refuse. It's the kids who feel the brunt of that burden because they are shamed over it and made to feel like such a burden to the rest of society.
I hope by posting this, it will remind those who have forgotten to take parenthood seriously instead of being so frivolous and cavalier about lives they create. If you want to have that attitude, then don't have kids. It's perfectly acceptable not to have any and to just go on doing whatever you want living however you want without ever having to worry. I believe if we embraced this concept and didn't feel the need to guilt people over making a conscience decision not to reproduce, then many of these people who don't really want to be parents would go ahead and realize this and live true to what it is they really wish for their lives.

People like the Duggars want to pressure everyone into having them even the ones who don't really want them, and they are very manipulative about it. I watched an episode of their show on TLC and they explained it. Whenever confronted about all their kids, they say they can't imagine life without any of them. So, then it becomes a matter of paradox, if we stop now we wouldn't have some of our family and we can't imagine it. Existing is the most important thing of all and trumps everything else but Americans do not see it that way. They tend to resent other people's kids and they certainly don't want to pay for them or give time and energy to them. In a perfect world, existing would be the absolute most important thing but the world is far from perfect and once you exist, you have needs that have to be fulfilled in order to function and your existence becomes dependent on them. Simply existing alone isn't enough and that's another paradox.

I would hope everyone is given the opportunity to be true to their own individual selves and not be forced or manipulated into what they don't feel is right for them.

The majority of incest victims never tell. In some cases the actual molestation isn't all that terrible (I say this with a cringe). For example, Josh's sisters didn't even REALIZE they were being abused. What's harmful is the need to keep the secret (so "I doesn't go to prison", "don't break up the family" "I'll kill your mom if you tell" - these are the things that are EXTREMELY harmful). The whole family dynamics become twisted and weird. It's very difficult for the children. They often repress their memory only to remember it at a later time and then react with RAGE. THIS is a serious problem and I would venture to say that is the cause of some homicides/suicides that seem to come out of the blue.

I think the best situation would be for his wife to divorce him and raise the kids herself. I know foster care sucks but I just think Michelle should leave him and raise the kids on her own or remarry. I still think this is less harmful. However, that is a good point that the new husband will not be as nurturing as a true biological father. Basically, the kids are screwed...

Adults need to start acting like adults. If an adult admits that they aren't fit to raise a child, then this is a wonderful thing.

HeavenlyAbyss,

I know you mean well but I can tell you from my own childhood it is one of the WORST options especially when you consider all the kids but the newborn already have a relationship with Josh. Even supervised visitation is a better option if there's nothing else and this is assuming he is guilty of abusing them and so far no one has said he is so we cannot say he is guilty without knowing. Those kids deserve to have their father advocate for them and to have a proper parent/child relationship.

Having the mom go off by herself and raise one kid is difficult enough, which was the case with me. I don't want to even imagine how difficult four kids would be to raise on her own especially since she has never been exposed to single parenthood in her life. The poor dear would be completely lost and clueless on where to begin. It would be incredibly traumatic for all involved.