What can we do about the high male suicide rate?

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There's all sorts of different levels. I think there's certainly a socio-economic level, in terms of reducing general pressure on people. It's unnecessary to make life quite so hard for so many. Not just materially hard, but the ridiculous social myths that are propagated. This seems an easier thing, at the level of policy, say.

Claradoon's remark about the man who got into a funk when he achieved his dreams - that's Del Boy, isn't it? The primary desire is to go on desiring. To sate a desire can be a profoundly empty experience. Quite how one puts this into social policy is beyond me.

It sometimes seems to me that all work is in a way a sort of make-work, is basket weaving.



Didn't say he was a hero. But I think the passage I quoted really nailed something, and explained well the differences in certain types of depression.

I was going to add one from Janice Galloway, who I'm sure is a much nicer human, but I can't find it online to copy-paste and I'm too tired to copy-type.

That is a very distinct possibility.

How about, "Hmm ... interesting ...", or "My understanding is a little different ...", or "You don't say! Please tell me more ...".

It is not a personal attack to point out factual errors, limited sample size, invalid reasoning, or statements that have racist, sexist, or other prejudicial implications.

Another distinct possibility! However, this "He says / She says" type of argument is pointless. How about printing out your questionnaire, distributing it among all of the men you know, and then compiling the results that come back? That way, you could have some credibility when you say "In response to Question #1, 73% of those who responded said X, 15% said Y, and the remainder declined to state", or something like that.

As for me, I stated before that I am a man, that I work with other men, and other men work for me. We do discuss feelings, not in a "Help me! Help me!" sort of way, but in more of a "When A happens to me, I feel B, what would you do about it?" sort of way. This goes as far back as when I manned the Command Crisis Hot Lines at different Naval bases. While all of this does not make me a world-class expert on the subject, it does give me a little more insight into the workings of the male mind than the average Joe (or Jane) may presume to have.

Likewise. I don't know about more than common, but guys i've known definitely talk about them and understand them as well as anyone can. One thing that has caught me in the deeper conversations (i.e. discussions of depression and things beyond joe said y and it really pi$$ed me off) is i've always had the sense that though they were communicating openly to me, they didn't feel/weren't able to others. Essentially concern that it would make others uncomfortable, be a source of ridicule or change friends' perceptions, etc. As such, it has almost felt like doing so, even though i wasn't their best friend or closest companion, was a kind of catharsis of that which otherwise remains locked, denied, and hidden. And i should never later, even mention what was said.

That's exactly what I said. I specifically stated that these things pertain to "the men I know." Which is a true statement. Did I say all men are like that? No, I did not. That's not sexist whatsoever.

Males "seem to" not be as aware of their feelings as females are. I actually based this off of what actual men that I personally know have said. Also, not a sexist statement.

So, the idea that I have made sexist generalizations is completely out of line with reality, as is clearly visible in the post above.



Saying that something "seems to be" is not a factual error. It's a statement of my own opinion. Opinions are not facts. Saying that men "may" not be able to identify the cause of their depression is also not a factual statement, therefore it is not a factual error.

Something which is based upon actual statements of other men is not sexist. If those men feel that way, then they do. I never made any generalizations, I stated my observations and knowledge from actual men that I know.

It's simply a summarization of my personal observations which was not stated as a fact.

You, on the other hand, were needlessly hostile and out of line. And you made plenty of sexist generalizations about women. So I'm not going to deal with this crap anymore. I've decided I don't care. Blame women for men's problems and project your own negative experiences onto others. I'm done.

I read this thread completely--it really hit a nerve with me although i am female.

The times i have felt like i truly cannot live anymore, there are two things that have kept me from doing anything to harm myself.

The first time, i was young and simply did not want to die. Although i did not know how to go on living, i was so very miserable. But, although i had a plan, it was not well formulated and i decided i wanted to LIVE. Living won out.

The second time, i had young children and couldn't even think of deserting them. I kept seeing their heartbroken faces and though i couldn't think how i would pull myself out of depression by my own bootstraps, i couldn't bear to leave them. Also couldn't think of leaving my husband as i knew he would be absolutely devastated.

The bottom line is that i always found more reason to live than to die. Funny thing is that i am religious but the thought of suicide as the "unpardonable sin of damnation" did not factor into my decision to live. I was less afraid of hellfire than my family's heartbreak. I guess whatever works.

I think the answer is to find someone a reason to live...or at least, a reason not to die.

I can identify with Fnord's mistrust of people and their motives. I can't overemphasize how much i identified with that. I had a horrible time asking for help and i felt like i was being second-guessed the whole time. It was humiliating. If i were ever to be in the position of helping someone in depression, i would try harder to earn their trust than to guess their motives. It inspires more confidence...and if someone trusts you, you will be more help to them anyway than if you are always second-guessing each other and watching your words.

But it was the only way to get meds and get better...so i sucked it up and did it. Eventually, i began to recover. I am in a good place now and have no wish to die. Life can be hard, but i have been able to manage it. With God and modern pharmaceutical advances. Thank God. Lol.

I think about suicide a lot. I'm sorry that you have felt that way in the past, but I am glad that you are doing much better now.

I have responsibilities to other people, so I can't die. And I am agnostic, so I do fear the unknown. I mostly think of suicide because I need to end the pain, and feel as though I can't go on. My life has been difficult and full of pain for almost as long as I can remember. But I never have acted on my thoughts of ending my life.

I actually would much rather live, enjoy my life, and try to help other people. But it's very difficult to make progress.

Depression and years of abuse can often lead to suicidal behavior. People just don't make a big deal about it esspecially when its male suicide, female suicide then they do.

I don't fear death. I do fear a painful death, but not death itself. My life has had a lot of pain too, but many joys. I want to stay here with my husband and kids. They need me, and I need them too.

Abraham Lincoln wrote during his struggles with depression, that he must die, or be better--that there was "no going on like this." I know that feeling. That I cannot go on as I am. But neither do I want to end it. The world is still beautiful, to me. There are so many good things in it and I don't want to leave yet.

Progress can be difficult. I likened recovering from depression to climbing a mountain, one slow step at a time. But I got there. I know the depression could come back, and that is scary. But if it did, hopefully I will remember that it got better before, if I just kept at it.

I think you will make progress too, if slowly...you sound like you are determined to do so. It did get easier for me, as I kept at it.

Westley in "The Princess Bride," says, "Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something."

C.S. Lewis, in "Out of the Silent Planet," says, "...I do not think the forest would be so bright, nor the water so warm, nor love so sweet, if there were no danger in the lakes." There is more to the quote and the context...but the gist being that the danger of death and the pain of life make the joys that much greater.

I do not understand the value of pain, but I do think that my joys are greater in life for the pain I have been through.

I sometimes feel things so sharply and deeply that I push my emotions aside because I just can't deal with them till time has dulled the sharpness of the pain. Right now, one of my dearest friends is dying and I am trying to let the reality of this for another day when it doesn't hurt so badly. I don't know if that day will come or if I will have to eventually face the pain in all its intensity. Probably it will not diminish till I have met it head on.

I am not sure how all this applies to helping people want to live rather than die...but from my experience, I think I feel pain more painfully but joy more intensely too, than some people. And that--waiting for the joy in life to overcome pain--carries me through the hard times. When someone has lost hope, or ability to see joy in life, then how does one convince them that life is worth living?

Regarding male emotion: The one emotion society in general supports in men is anger, or even rage. That may be why men are more likely to commit murder-suicide: when they are depressed, they have been trained for their entire lives to channel whatever they are feeling into rage instead of 'mere' sadness.

As for what we can do...
It's unsatisfying because it takes a long time, but we can permit our sons, and the sons of those around us, to cry and show fear without telling them to 'toughen up' and 'be men.' It's just as pernicious as telling girls not to show anger or competitiveness.

Why would rage more likely end in suicide than sadness? I would have thought that extreme sadness is just likely to be a factor.

If we are talking about murder suicides that is one thing, however this is not the majority, also I'm not convinced most men are killing themselves just to spite others. Even if there was spite, they are killing themselves so they don't feel they are worth their life. There are other ways to spite others that don't include suicide.

The problem with the statistics that I posted in the opening posts is they exclude boys and teenagers, and also there a stereotype these middle aged men are divorcees/have relationship issues or that has anything to do with it.

Whether rage, frustration, loneliness, loss of face, sadness is a factor doesn't tell us whether it is a symptomatic.

I talked about testosterone. Testosterone can be linked to aggression. It is more complicated than that but it is a factor. At the peak age these men are killing themselves, they are loosing their testosterone. Perhaps the hormonal changes can cause mood swings, I'm really not sure.

Regarding anger. Anger can be directed to more constrictive use. It is called controlled anger, and that can help diffuse it.

Sadness can sometimes give rise to anger. The other way round, some of the pent up energy has to be expended or somehow, but positive. Even with sadness that need to be directed somewhere positive. A spiraling sadness or black dog I don't think that is any better.

Yes suicide is a destructive act, however how it is administered could be purely to be final. Sure they may be a using a capacity to be destructive, but that doesn't mean it is always born out of rage.

The flip side, is there is possibility that the females that are at risk may share some of the same trait such as rage.

A lot of these social theories are based on the idea that many behaviors are entirely taught, by that logic the extreme violence in Chimps is a purely nurture based. I don't buy that.

If anything the significant imprinting in humans is the historical record of becoming gradually less violent. However violence was part of our prehistory and even part of survival and we are still so inclined.

One of the unique things about humans, is how we contort our very nature to fit into our constructed environment and overlapping grouping called society.

This contortion can create tears, in the form of mental illness.

It is said in the canine family there is not much madness or neuroticism (diversion from expected behaviors) in the wild, except when there is organic damage to the brain, yet in domesticated dog they can become neurotic quite easily especially if they have no pack role.

We contort our nature, it soemthign that works but it is not without side effects.

As far as 'nature' is concerned, I don't think it's a matter of nature vs nurture. I think it's a matter of nature vs nature. As I see it, the human condition is one of internal conflict. We are not simple, monistic, straightforward creatures somehow 'perverted' by nurture/society. First, I think we are unfinished at birth, and possibly only become finished due to death. Second, the 'nature' we are born with is not one that coheres into a unitary whole, but contains various inclinations and drives that go against each other. I would think disatisfaction is the rule. We always have an 'ordered' or 'engineered' society. And at any given moment, some like the order very well, and others find much to protest about.

And not to be, well, me frankly, but I don't think 'sadness' is the right word. I think the emotional states that lead to suicide are closer to anguish and distress, or a chronic desolation.

Context matters. The biology or abstract label remains the same, but the social/cultural context it fits in varies. Two homosexual men may get up to the same things in bed in Victorian Britain as they would in Ancient Greece. Yet the social context for these acts were very different, and this would have affected the perspectives of the participants.

It need not be that some particular 'nature' is being perverted or denied or such, just that a cultural set-up/cue has failed to deliver as promised.

The basic advert set-up, though they probably couldn't literally do it, is 'buy this and you'll be happy'. It creates a desire in the consumer for the product, a desire that can only be relieved by purchasing the product. So, the product is purchased, and there's a momentary relief before it's got home and turns out to be just another thing, happiness-inducing lifestyle not included. That experience is depressing. Take that promise and apply it to a life, apply it to thousands of incremental messages and throw in many implicit assumptions and inferences as to what the great reward will be if one lives a particular life, or just is a particular kind of person. And then compare the dreary reality to the glossy promise that was made.

I think we really lack cultural ways to signal this, to talk about it, to even think about/conceptualise/interpret it.

"Why would rage more likely end in suicide than sadness? I would have thought that extreme sadness is just likely to be a factor."


Because suicide is an action. It is violence directed at the self. Depression alone doesn't cause self-directed violence. I'm not talking about rational, thought-out euthanasia, I'm talking about impulsive, explosive suicide attempts.

Here's a thought experiment for you. Imagine you are being abused or have been abused by someone you love (someone you can't live without). Now imagine feelings of rage against that person start to surface. But immediately when those feelings of rage surface you start to feel guilt and remorse and fear of your ownself and what you are capable of. Knowing it is wrong to harbor violent thoughts about another person, you instead decide it is safest just to repress your awareness of anger against that particular person and instead turn that anger on yourself. It's just a theory.

My point is depression alone doesn't cause suicidal behavior. Depression alone doesn't even cause suicidal thoughts. I've only had suicidal thoughts once in my life and it was directly superceded by feelings of intense anger. My theory is that they go hand in hand.

These at all cute ideas; but how do they relate to what we can do about the high male suicide rate?

Finding contributing factors is important to figuring out how to bring the numbers of suicides down, is it not?

Only if they are based on valid empirical data, and not on the ersatz musings of uneducated minds.