Racists don’t get it that...

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funeralxempire
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26 Jul 2020, 5:53 pm

QFT wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

What are you talking about? Gnosticism is a type of Christianity. You cant have been a sub type of Christian before and during the lifetime of Christ. That would be like someone being in the "Never Trumper" faction of the GOP back in the 1840's, prior to the formation of the Republican party itself.

Early mainstream Christians treated all gnostics as heretical Christians but they weren't correct then and that understanding is still not correct now.

By "early Christians" you mean 3-rd century ones? I thought you said in the earlier reply that the 1-st century early Christians were themselves influenced by gnostics?

By early Christians, I mean the ones who made the Pauline interpretation the 'correct' one.

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cyberdad
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26 Jul 2020, 5:54 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

Early mainstream Christians treated all gnostics as heretical Christians but they weren't correct then and that understanding is still not correct now.

After the Niocene creed and the splitting of christian faith into Orthodox (lets copy the jews) and catholic (lets have a European sect) anyone else who called themselves christians were persecuted.

In Europe the Arrian sect were slaughtered off so began a legacy of catholic Eurocentric conversion by the sword and attributing conquest to the cause of "white jesus".

Last edited by cyberdad on 26 Jul 2020, 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

QFT
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26 Jul 2020, 5:54 pm

cyberdad wrote:

certainly the Mandeans were influenced and follow him

Are Mandeans the ones killed in Masada? If yes, then how is it possible to combine your current statement that Mandeans believe in Jesus with your previous statement that the Jews killed in Masada didn't?

cyberdad wrote:

and there is evidence that JTB also influenced almost all sects of modern christianity (not just Baptism but also in terms of evangalism).

By JTB do you mean "John the Baptist"? If so, why would it be surprising?

QFT
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26 Jul 2020, 5:58 pm

cyberdad wrote:

After the Niocene creed and the splitting of christian faith into Orthodox (lets copy the jews) and catholic (lets have a European sect)

In what sense do Orthodox "copy the Jews"? I mean, at least in case of Russian Orthodox, they don't observe Jewish laws. Their church is on Sunday and they eat pork and other non-kosher food.

Or are you saying that the majority of *other* Orthodox churches copy the Jews? Yes I heard of Ethiopian ones doing it, but I assumed Ethiopian are the only ones. But that was just my assuming I don't truly know. Are there other Orthodox churches that also copy the Jews?

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26 Jul 2020, 6:00 pm

QFT wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

certainly the Mandeans were influenced and follow him

They were a sect formed from some of the remnants of the surviving essenes during the time of John the Baptist (JTB).

The Jewish radicals in Masada were called rebels by the Romans but called themselves Sicarri

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26 Jul 2020, 6:02 pm

I think the Mandaeans revered John the Baptist but I don't think John the Baptist was one of them.

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funeralxempire
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26 Jul 2020, 6:15 pm

cyberdad wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

Early mainstream Christians treated all gnostics as heretical Christians but they weren't correct then and that understanding is still not correct now.

I'd be very interested in seeing you substantiate this view.

funeralxempire
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26 Jul 2020, 6:17 pm

vermontsavant wrote:

I think the Mandaeans revered John the Baptist but I don't think John the Baptist was one of them.

Are they lying?

naturalplastic
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26 Jul 2020, 6:19 pm

vermontsavant wrote:

I think the Mandaeans revered John the Baptist but I don't think John the Baptist was one of them.

This.

Christians, Muslims, and Mormons, all revere John the Baptist. But that doesnt mean he WAS a Christian, Muslim, or a Mormon.

naturalplastic
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26 Jul 2020, 6:22 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

vermontsavant wrote:

I think the Mandaeans revered John the Baptist but I don't think John the Baptist was one of them.

Are they lying?

Are American Fundies "lying" when they say that the Earth was created in seven days in 4000 BC?

Its what their faith teaches them. Doesnt make it historically accurate.

naturalplastic
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26 Jul 2020, 6:29 pm

QFT wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

QFT wrote:

As far as gnostics, you can discard them on the basis that they were condemned by the apostles. The verses in 1 John that talk about the "spirit of antichrist" that denies that "Jesus came in the flesh" is likely referring to gnostics because gnostics didn't believe Jesus had fleshy body but rather that his body was of a spiritual substance. And also the "doctrine of Nicolatians" that was referred negatively in the book of Revelation is also likely a reference to gnosticism.

Jesus was baptized by a gnostic; John the Baptist was a Mandaean (which was one of the gnostic faiths). The relationship between Gnostic Christians, gnosticism and the rest of Christianity is likely far more complicated than Pauline Christians have chosen to record.

Wait...what? John the Baptist was a gnostic? surely he was just part of the messianic essene cult of Judaism (the same group who were slaughtered by the Romans in Masada and who were responsible for the dead sea scrolls) which were heralding the coming of the messiah. Gnostics were early christians who came along long after Salome had poor old John's head served on a platter.

He was a Mandaean, which was a gnostic religion.

Gnostic Christians weren't the only gnostic group so your post doesn't make enough sense to respond more thoroughly to.

That sounds interesting. Do you think Jews that were killed in Masada believed in Jesus? And do you think the remnant Mandeans continued throughout the senturies as some underground sects? Are there differences between Mandeans and Essenes?

Christianity started out as a splinter sect of Judaism. But there is no way that ANY of the Jews who died at Masada were followers of Jesus. Thats because the Jews in the Jesus cult already HAD a messiah, while the rest of Judea was awaiting a messiah to deliver them (presumably through force of arms) from Roman rule. It was the Jews who were not in the Jesus cult who rose up in rebellion against Rome - the series of rebellions that climaxed with the siege of Masada.

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26 Jul 2020, 6:39 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

vermontsavant wrote:

I think the Mandaeans revered John the Baptist but I don't think John the Baptist was one of them.

This.

Christians, Muslims, and Mormons, all revere John the Baptist. But that doesnt mean he WAS a Christian, Muslim, or a Mormon.

John the Baptist was a Christian because it is recorded in the Gospels how he proclaimed that Jesus is the Messiah.

cyberdad
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26 Jul 2020, 7:29 pm

QFT wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

vermontsavant wrote:

I think the Mandaeans revered John the Baptist but I don't think John the Baptist was one of them.

This.

Christians, Muslims, and Mormons, all revere John the Baptist. But that doesnt mean he WAS a Christian, Muslim, or a Mormon.

John the Baptist was a Christian because it is recorded in the Gospels how he proclaimed that Jesus is the Messiah.

Technically he was described as a "jewish itinerant preacher" rather than a follower of christ.

QFT
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26 Jul 2020, 7:48 pm

cyberdad wrote:

QFT wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

vermontsavant wrote:

I think the Mandaeans revered John the Baptist but I don't think John the Baptist was one of them.

This.

Christians, Muslims, and Mormons, all revere John the Baptist. But that doesnt mean he WAS a Christian, Muslim, or a Mormon.

John the Baptist was a Christian because it is recorded in the Gospels how he proclaimed that Jesus is the Messiah.

Technically he was described as a "jewish itinerant preacher" rather than a follower of christ.

John 2:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 2:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

John 2:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

John 2:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

naturalplastic
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26 Jul 2020, 7:57 pm

QFT wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

vermontsavant wrote:

I think the Mandaeans revered John the Baptist but I don't think John the Baptist was one of them.

This.

Christians, Muslims, and Mormons, all revere John the Baptist. But that doesnt mean he WAS a Christian, Muslim, or a Mormon.

John the Baptist was a Christian because it is recorded in the Gospels how he proclaimed that Jesus is the Messiah.

Fair enough. He was a Jewish preacher, but he supposedly recognized Jesus as being the real deal. So that would make JTB classifiable as being among the first Christians. But you couldnt assign him to some later subdivision of Christianity.

QFT
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26 Jul 2020, 8:00 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

QFT wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

vermontsavant wrote:

I think the Mandaeans revered John the Baptist but I don't think John the Baptist was one of them.

This.

Christians, Muslims, and Mormons, all revere John the Baptist. But that doesnt mean he WAS a Christian, Muslim, or a Mormon.

John the Baptist was a Christian because it is recorded in the Gospels how he proclaimed that Jesus is the Messiah.

Well, none of the early Christians can be assigned to "later subdivision of Christianity" either. Thats why its so interesting to see what they actually believed.

So what percentage of Mandeans recognized Jesus?

I just looked up Ebionites in Jewish encyclopedia http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... -ebionites and the say they DID belive in Jesus.

What about Mandeans though?

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