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Who killed Jesus? Some new ideas

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TwilightPrincess
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20 Jun 2022, 1:35 pm

QFT wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
He’s like most people of his ancient time. Very little is actually known about Him.


That’s probably because he wasn’t very important and didn’t do much that was worthy of note.

He had a few fans that created tall tales about him. It’s hard to say how much truth is or isn’t in these tall tales.


If they were just few fans, why would they be willing to be thrown to lions for their faith? That is an evidence that resurrection did happen. Because if it didn’t, then they would have known they made it up (since they were the ones from whom the news originated) and nobody would want to die for a fairy tale.


People die for their fairy tale faiths all the time.

A willingness to die for one’s faith is not proof.


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QFT
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20 Jun 2022, 1:35 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Jesus was an obscure personage until he was about 30 years of age.


He was still obscure after 30 years of age outside of his small cult following. He got bigger and bigger over the centuries.


The time they were thrown to lions for their faith was first century.



QFT
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20 Jun 2022, 1:36 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
QFT wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
He’s like most people of his ancient time. Very little is actually known about Him.


That’s probably because he wasn’t very important and didn’t do much that was worthy of note.

He had a few fans that created tall tales about him. It’s hard to say how much truth is or isn’t in these tall tales.


If they were just few fans, why would they be willing to be thrown to lions for their faith? That is an evidence that resurrection did happen. Because if it didn’t, then they would have known they made it up (since they were the ones from whom the news originated) and nobody would want to die for a fairy tale.


People die for their fairy tale faiths all the time.

A willingness to die for one’s faith is not proof.


If they know it is a fairy tale then they know they have nothing to gain by the death. So why die if they won’t gain anything by it?



TwilightPrincess
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20 Jun 2022, 1:36 pm

QFT wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Jesus was an obscure personage until he was about 30 years of age.


He was still obscure after 30 years of age outside of his small cult following. He got bigger and bigger over the centuries.


The time they were thrown to lions for their faith was first century.


So?

People can be similarly zealous about brand new cults, like Heaven’s Gate.


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TwilightPrincess
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20 Jun 2022, 1:37 pm

QFT wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
QFT wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
He’s like most people of his ancient time. Very little is actually known about Him.


That’s probably because he wasn’t very important and didn’t do much that was worthy of note.

He had a few fans that created tall tales about him. It’s hard to say how much truth is or isn’t in these tall tales.


If they were just few fans, why would they be willing to be thrown to lions for their faith? That is an evidence that resurrection did happen. Because if it didn’t, then they would have known they made it up (since they were the ones from whom the news originated) and nobody would want to die for a fairy tale.


People die for their fairy tale faiths all the time.

A willingness to die for one’s faith is not proof.


If they know it is a fairy tale then they know they have nothing to gain by the death. So why die if they won’t gain anything by it?


They don’t know it’s a fairy tale.


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TwilightPrincess
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20 Jun 2022, 1:39 pm

People can have faith, but faith in and of itself is not proof.

Back to your story, how can you know that the entire story or specific parts of it weren’t fabricated?


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20 Jun 2022, 1:56 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
They don’t know it’s a fairy tale.


They would, because they were the ones that created it. If someone says they, personally, saw Jesus rising from the dead, then either they actually saw it, or they knowingly lied. If they knowingly lied, why would they be willing to die for their lie?



TwilightPrincess
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20 Jun 2022, 2:01 pm

QFT wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
They don’t know it’s a fairy tale.


They would, because they were the ones that created it. If someone says they, personally, saw Jesus rising from the dead, then either they actually saw it, or they knowingly lied. If they knowingly lied, why would they be willing to die for their lie?


How do you know that story is true?


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20 Jun 2022, 2:02 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
People can have faith, but faith in and of itself is not proof.

Back to your story, how can you know that the entire story or specific parts of it weren’t fabricated?


If they were willing to die for saying that Jesus rose, then he did.

If that one part is true, then God was at work.

If God was at work, He would make sure that all the rest of it is true.

When some parts seem to contradict each other, there are often ways to reconcile them. For example according to John, Jesus cleared the temple at the beginning of His ministry; according to the other three Gospels at the end. The way for both to be right is to say He cleared the temple twice. Or perhaps multiple times. Maybe He did it every pass over, and those two times are the only ones recorded.

That’s just one example. Other things can be reconciled in similar ways.

When things can’t be reconciled it was probably because it was not very important and that’s why God didn’t bother correcting it.



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20 Jun 2022, 2:04 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
QFT wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
They don’t know it’s a fairy tale.


They would, because they were the ones that created it. If someone says they, personally, saw Jesus rising from the dead, then either they actually saw it, or they knowingly lied. If they knowingly lied, why would they be willing to die for their lie?


How do you know that story is true?


Because if it wasn’t true it would be a KNOWN lie: if someone claims they personally saw Jesus rising and he didn’t, then they know they are lying.

Now, people don’t just die for a lie.



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20 Jun 2022, 2:07 pm

The_Znof wrote:
klanka wrote:
The first three gospels put insane moral standards on anyone who reads them,


I must have missed these insane moral standards, example?


“Take what you have and give it to the poor”

A request to follow Jesus without even waving farewell to a family (Luke 9:57-62)

A claim that only few are saved (Matt 7:13)



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20 Jun 2022, 2:08 pm

QFT wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
QFT wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
They don’t know it’s a fairy tale.


They would, because they were the ones that created it. If someone says they, personally, saw Jesus rising from the dead, then either they actually saw it, or they knowingly lied. If they knowingly lied, why would they be willing to die for their lie?


How do you know that story is true?


Because if it wasn’t true it would be a KNOWN lie: if someone claims they personally saw Jesus rising and he didn’t, then they know they are lying.

Now, people don’t just die for a lie.


You aren’t getting what I’m saying. The story could be just that - a story from beginning to end.

Also, sometimes people can hallucinate or have dreams that they mistake for a spiritual experience. This happens in all branches of religion.


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QFT
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20 Jun 2022, 2:16 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
QFT wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
QFT wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
They don’t know it’s a fairy tale.


They would, because they were the ones that created it. If someone says they, personally, saw Jesus rising from the dead, then either they actually saw it, or they knowingly lied. If they knowingly lied, why would they be willing to die for their lie?


How do you know that story is true?


Because if it wasn’t true it would be a KNOWN lie: if someone claims they personally saw Jesus rising and he didn’t, then they know they are lying.

Now, people don’t just die for a lie.


You aren’t getting what I’m saying. The story could be just that - a story from beginning to end.

Also, sometimes people can hallucinate or have dreams that they mistake for a spiritual experience. This happens in all branches of religion.


Too many people would have hallucinated in this case. People wouldn’t just agree to massively die for some mass hallucination.

Also whose interests were they serving? If Roman interests, why did they make up Jesus to be a Jew rather than a Roman? If Jewish interests, why did they put all those anti-Jewish verses in there? Also, women weren’t exactly popular at the time. So why did they make it up so that women saw empty tomb rather than men?

The point is that if Jesus wasn’t real then, from sociological point of view, it makes no sense why this movement came up out of nowhere.

But if it was real then it makes perfect sense. The time Jesus rode on a donkey matches exactly the time prophesied in Daniel. So if God needs to fulfill the prophecy, then yes He will step in and do it, even if it goes against what secular sociology would predict.



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20 Jun 2022, 2:20 pm

QFT wrote:
Too many people would have hallucinated in this case. People wouldn’t just agree to massively die for some mass hallucination.

Also whose interests were they serving? If Roman interests, why did they make up Jesus to be a Jew rather than a Roman? If Jewish interests, why did they put all those anti-Jewish verses in there? Also, women weren’t exactly popular at the time. So why did they make it up so that women saw empty tomb rather than men?

The point is that if Jesus wasn’t real then, from sociological point of view, it makes no sense why this movement came up out of nowhere.

But if it was real then it makes perfect sense. The time Jesus rode on a donkey matches exactly the time prophesied in Daniel. So if God needs to fulfill the prophecy, then yes He will step in and do it, even if it goes against what secular sociology would predict.

Do you use these arguments to justify gods in other religions?
If so, how do you understand the relationship between Jesus/God and them?

Incidentally, after Buddhism originated in India was introduced into China, the artistic images appeared to be ethnically ambiguous. Or hard to think of East Asians.


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TwilightPrincess
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20 Jun 2022, 2:24 pm

I don’t believe in Bible prophecies in Daniel or Revelation. I think that if God were real he’d have better communication skills than to create cryptic prophecies that could easily be misunderstood.

In order to comply with your specific narrative, a person must rely on a bunch of unprovable assumptions.

You really can’t prove these beliefs. That’s what faith is for.


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20 Jun 2022, 2:31 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
QFT wrote:
Too many people would have hallucinated in this case. People wouldn’t just agree to massively die for some mass hallucination.

Also whose interests were they serving? If Roman interests, why did they make up Jesus to be a Jew rather than a Roman? If Jewish interests, why did they put all those anti-Jewish verses in there? Also, women weren’t exactly popular at the time. So why did they make it up so that women saw empty tomb rather than men?

The point is that if Jesus wasn’t real then, from sociological point of view, it makes no sense why this movement came up out of nowhere.

But if it was real then it makes perfect sense. The time Jesus rode on a donkey matches exactly the time prophesied in Daniel. So if God needs to fulfill the prophecy, then yes He will step in and do it, even if it goes against what secular sociology would predict.

Do you use these arguments to justify gods in other religions?
If so, how do you understand the relationship between Jesus/God and them?


Other religions don’t have resurrections. Buddha is still in a grave.

SkinnedWolf wrote:
Incidentally, after Buddhism originated in India was introduced into China, the artistic images appeared to be ethnically ambiguous. Or hard to think of East Asians.


The point is that Jews were enslaved by Rome. So Romans would not want to convert to what used to be a Jewish sect, unless it’s true.