Jihad is it right or wrong?

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You're half right - its in the Hadith, which is considered scripture, but is not the Koran.

On plain reading, the scriptures say Jews should kill witches and Christians should pluck out their eyes if their eyes lead them to sin. These cannot be considered isolated and obtuse - they are part of those scriptures, and they say what they say.

It's clear that you wish one standard for judging religions you approve of, and another tougher standard for judging the others. You wish to explain away strange passages that encourage violence from the religions you favor, and while you take out of context any passages in Islam you find possibly objectionable. You mentally excommunicate anyone who calls themselves a Christian and committed atrocities in the name of that religion, but you refuse to allow Muslims to renounce a butcher like bin Laden because you think the entire religion is about brutality.

I would suggest you refresh your recollection of Matthew 7:2 : "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Or is that another obscure, obtuse passage that you can ignore at your convenience?

Isn't it true that while many Christians portray their religion as a religion of peace, this is directly contradicted repeatedly by the words of Christ?

Not peace, but a sword. Jesus wants to breaking up your family. He encourages people to lose their life for the cause, he demands martyrdom.




Must hate their own mother and father, their own life, to come to the laird.



Ignore that stuff about beating swords into plows - sell everything and buy weapons for Jesus!

still distorting things

I am entirely right, it is NOT in the Koran. Your statement that it WAS is entirely WRONG.

but you continue to quote out of context. And even if you disregard the context, so what? What is the over-riding theme of each?

Try a text search on "friend" in the Bible
http://www.tniv.info/bible/index.php
You will get well over 100 results, typical of which is
John 15:13 TNIV Chapter
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends

Do the same in the Koran
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/simple.html
you get dozens of matches, typical of which is:
[4.144] O you who believe! do not take the unbelievers for friends rather than the believers; do you desire that you should give to Allah a manifest proof against yourselves?

Yes.

First your objection was that the words of the Koran promoted violence at their face value. You didn't want to consider the context, dismissing such as irrelevant, subject to interpretation, a matter of theological argument.

Then you are shown words in the New Testament where Jesus said he isn't bringing peace, rather a sword, that he wants to break up families, and people must give up their life if they want to follow him. So now you start talking about the importance of context - the meaning doesn't come from what the words say, it is from the way they are interpreted.

And then you say that even if those passages really say what they say, what people should look at the overall tone of each work, not the fact that both conflict with themselves internally, and both have admonitions to violence.

You obviously have one aim, which is not to understand other religions, but to criticize and denounce them. You may think you found a magic few words that explains an entire religion and the conflict in the Middle East.

Ok - it was not in the Koran, which literally makes my statement incorrect. It is in their scriptures, the Hadith. It is taught and discussed as part of their religion. So you get 2 language points for spotting an innacuracy in my statement, and I get 98 content points because Islam does have something very like the Golden Rule. Amazing how you can be ENTIRELY CORRECT!! and still miss the truth, but that is typical for polemics and ideologues like you.

BazzaMcKenzie, it seems to be a thing about christianity versus mulsims. Us against them. I am right and they are wrong, etc.
It seems that you are generalizing, without looking for more information and opinons about it from professional scholars on the subject. So it looks more likely like a subjective view on this, which very likely it may not be that simple.
Probably that is iamnotaparakeet's point on this thread. "Christianity is good and Islam is bad. Period".

Last edited by greenblue on 21 Sep 2007, 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

I am not a "practising Christian". I don't go to church. I am happy to learn more about Islam.

Is there a Muslim here who can explain his/her basic beliefs, and if I show some apparent conflicts with the Koran, can they explain how they reconcile those conflicts.

For starters, do you believe the words of Allah transcribed in the Koran no longer as relevent to day as they once were? Also, do Muslims have non-muslim friends? If so, how do they feel about the Koran telling them there is nothing in heaven for them? How is that reconciled?

Do you believe there is such a thing as a "moderate" Muslim? There is a leading Cleric here (Melbourne Australia) who says no. Islam is Islam. You either are or you are not. He says "moderate" is political term and not a religious one. Is that so?

Me miss the truth

your quote from the Koran "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." .... is ENTIRELY MISSING from the Koran. Other scriptures are not the "word of Allah".
You misquote, quote out of context, and make outrageous statements like "Muslims want to emulate Christ".

If you want to tell me my opinions are wrong, why do you use lies?

I didn't lie about anything. I mis-spoke and said that an equivalent to the Golden Rule was in the Koran. There is such a teaching in Muslim scripture, but it was the Hadith and not the Koran. So technically, you are correct, but you are wrong on the larger issue. Muslims do have such a principle in their religion.

1. Yes. Some of the words of the Koran were describing particular historical situations - Mohammed's expulsion from a city and attempts to return and establish a just city in which he felt that force was justified. These episodes are not necessarily general principles that apply to all times and places, not any more than Biblical approval for killing all the people of a place and salting their fields. The Bible at various times demands the death penalty for adultery, witchcraft, cursing at a parent and using the Lord's name in vain. And yet most Jews and Christians do not enforce these in modern times. Anyone can misinterpret a scripture so that the specific becomes general, or the general becomes specific.

2. Yes, I am not a muslim and I have muslim friends. They don't necessarily think that there is nothing in heaven for Christians or Jews. Muslims consider Jews and Christians to be 'People of the Book' - ie, fellow worshippers of the God of Abraham. They believe that Jews and Christians that lead a good life will be judged favorably by God. "[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." Jews and Christians don't have to accept the message of Muhammed, don't have to convert. They only have to believe in God and do good, ie, live a good life.

3. Moderate can mean many things. If by moderate, you mean tolerant of other religions, with love for mankind and charity in their heart, then yes. Some Muslims are like that. Some are not. The same is true of all religions.

Sure, there are intolerant bigots in Islam. There are also a fair number of Christian clerics who say that the only way that salvation is possible is through their particular interpretation of Christian doctrine, and either you say the magic words and are Christian, or you are not. They might allow that some good Jews might be judged favorably by God, but they teach that followers of all other religions are lost, are fallen under Satanic spells. How do you feel as a non-practicing member of a religion that has many such preachers - people who have no concept of moderation, who believe if you agree exactly with them you are headed to heaven, and if you disagree you are headed straight to hell?

Any major religion with a complicated scripture is going to be interpreted and implemented by different groups with different tendencies - it is human nature for some people to look for literal, absolute truths that make them special and everyone else dirt. Their belief in their interpretation of the supernatural gives them license to suspend the ordinary rules of human decency.

And there are also people who interpret and implement every religion as a way to improve themselves without having to tear down others. Some people believe the commonality between their religion and other religions is not an accident, and that feeding the hungry and helping the sick are a good thing no matter what religious brand or doctrine is involved.

Islam means "submission" and not peace .

For me, you have no credibility. You are full of BS.

Can anyone else answer?

I think you guys should talk about your ideas and refrain from talking about each other.