Ah, yet more sanity from Hamas...

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To clarify for you, there is no country called "Palestine", and the only one there ever existed was when the British decided to call Israel "Palestine" -- an anti-Semitic name change, inspired by the wicked Roman Emperor Hadrian's pejorative declararion of Israel's coastal region as "Palestine" in AD 135, in deliberate referrence to Israel's ancient archenemy, the Philistines. (So, in a linguistic sense, the Palestianians are the Philistines!)

The "Palestinians" are neither from ancient Israel, nor from the more-recently British-named "Palestine", but come from the surrounding Arab countries. Their goal is the same as their several origin countries' goal: the displacement, preferably by killing, of the Jewish people from the modern land of Israel.

"Israel" is the new name, and "Israel" is also the old name. It's the same country it always was. It belongs to the Jews.
Disagree? Go on an archaeological dig there sometime. Israeli soil is literally jam-packed with ancient Hebrew artifacts and graves, proving whose land it really is.

Last edited by Ragtime on 09 Apr 2008, 3:52 pm, edited 8 times in total.

Ragtime, most wars are never formally declared - the US for example has never declared war since WWII. Formally declaring war went out of fashion ages ago. War is defined as 'A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties.' Hamas is openly in armed conflict with Israel, it does not pretend it's not at war with Israel, even if they haven't sent a formal notification to the Israeli government. Hamas in Gaza is a de facto government in a state of war with Israel.

Hamas routinely does so.

Pbcoll, is Israel waging an all-out physical battle against the Palestinians -- yes or no?
Corollary: Do you have any conception of Israel's total armament?
If you do, then you know that Israel attempting to wipe out the Palestinians would result in exactly that.
Hence, they are obviously choosing only to keep the Palestinians under control, not to annihilate them.

Last edited by Ragtime on 09 Apr 2008, 2:15 pm, edited 5 times in total.

I guess we better rename America's Revolutionary War into America's Period of Criminal Mischief - instead of marching onto a battlefield to confront the redcoats, the Minutemen would hide behind trees and fences to snipe, and retreat when confronted. They also liked to tar and feather tax collectors and anyone associated with the British occupation; dipping a person in hot asphalt led to burns and chemical poisoning that was often was fatal.

Please try to stay focused. My other point was that both sides must engage in war for there to be war.
Is the U.S. at war with Los Angeles gangs and neighborhood thugs? No, they are not. They are keeping them under control. If the U.S. was at war with them, the gangs would soon be either dead or dispersed.

The notion of war can be defined in a variety of ways, and I think you are being arbitrary in the way you define it. Conflict does not need to be all-out, declared to be called war. I suggest that if one group routinely launches shells or missiles into the other's settlements, war is an appropriate term.

I've watched some clips about it on youtube and yes, very scary indeed. And admittedly quite similar to the Hamas camps in terms of brainwashing, fascism and indoctrination. After all this Becky Fisher even says that she wants it to be like those camps. So if you find this sick you'll have to find Hamas camps sick, too. It's simply child abuse. That's all I'm saying.
The thing is that in Palestine it seems to be quite common practice to regard a child as a "fighter". And they aren't telling children there only to "be Allah's army" or something, but they are much more specific about it, they say: "Put away the toy, and grab the stone!"
But then I say, you have to decide, either you abuse your children as fighters and human shields or you cry about and blame the IDF for killing those children. You can't have both.

That movie I was talking about isn't scary at all though, on the contrary. In German it is called "Hate and Hope", a title which pretty much fits. Here are two clips of it also, I strongly recommend it to anyone who's interested in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and is open to the views and suffering of both sides:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e2xIw8Qs-g&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySJaH7OXzOA

Last edited by risingphoenix on 10 Apr 2008, 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Oh, how convenient.

If "war" has no clear meaning, then why are you and others clinging to the word when describing Israel and the Palestinians?
And my analogy, which you ignored, makes the salient point. The US may be, in a sense, said to be "at war with" criminal gangs (i.e. "War on Crime"), but it's not a war covered by the Rules of Engagement, where the US is allowed to kill all gang members on sight. If the US President ordered the cops to shoot all gang members on site, as in a real war, most people would be appalled, and consider the President in the wrong. Hence, it's not a real war -- it's a lesser type of conflict. In a war, everyone expects to kill the enemy on site. That's normal in a war. Therefore, if Israel was really at war with Hamas, no one would object to Israel's "treatment of the Palestinians", as the far-left media wails daily. In a real war, Israel would be expected to kill and drive away the enemy -- not be accused for it.



Okay, I will accept that the Palestinians are at war -- in their own weird way -- against Israel. Just as the mafia in the US is "at war with" the cops. I mean, there's the "War on Drugs", but it's obviously not a literal, physical battle -- it's a figure of speech.

My point stands that if Israel wiped out the Palestinians tomorrow, the world would not consider that a valid action -- because they don't consider Israel to be at war with the Palestinians. Just because thugs may want every cop and citizen dead doesn't mean the reverse is true. The world doesn't say "Israel's war against the Palestinians is wrong", they say only that specific forceful encounters are wrong. That's because those encounters are not considered part of any war, but rather isolated incidents.

stop using the " " for innocent children. Children are innocent whether they are used as walking bombs by terrorists or killed by the IDF 's air strikes at homes.


I am not saying that you don't have the right of self-defense against a kamikaze child but this use of " " only shows how fundamentally limited-minded sick you are.

Yes, children are always naturally innocent. But if you put a weapon into their hands/strap dynamite on their body etc. and use them for armed conflict you turn them into not innocent humans anymore. People who do that take away their natural innocence, that's why it's called child abuse and that's why it's so terrible.

And with regards to the personally insulting rest of your post: "When we fail to prove with reason, then anger comes. When reason ends, then anger begins. Therefore, anger is a sign of weakness." (Mahatma Ghandi)

The insults that came out are simply because I disrespect your way of thinking and not because of any inability to reason. Don't overthink about them, I just can't stand people like you ...simple.

So you have to insult people who don't share your point of view? Interesting.
Maybe I wasn't expressing myself clearly enough though: Of course, also the child soldier you cannot blame for being a child soldier as he was turned into one by a bunch of crazy adults. And it's always terrible when children get killed. But if they are abused as fighters then those who are to be blamed are the ones who send them into the battlefield, not the IDF (whose soldiers are often left with PTSD after such an incident where they hit a child).
"Curse you for forcing me into this situation." one could say.

no, they are not using Palestinian Troops or security forces. They are still using irregulars. It could be close to that in Gaza currently admitedly.



How so? Evil is subjective. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, as exibited here. You may not agree with it, as I do not agree with Naziism's ideas but I can't call it "evil".

Also, the comics and the like said all Nazis and all Communists were "evil"



in WWI "Hang the Hun" was a popular children's game.



like drummer boys in the American Civil War?

When he launches some nukes at Israel?

EDIT: assuming Iran is building nuclear weapons, which it abandoned its weapons program in 2003.

Well I'm calling the whole area of land Palestine, I mean the land has had many different name changes over the centuries. I don't know what you call it. You call refer to it as Israel, I don't really care what the land is called.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

From reading that link above (very interesting read!!) there is evidence that the Jews arrived in the 13th century BC. The bible says the kindom of Israel was established 1020 BC.

So a point I would like to make is that there was people living there before the Jews came to Israel. So the Jews took over the land from another civilization. So it wasn't theirs land originally!!

Next we see that the kindom of Israel was destroyed between 720 and 722 BC by the Assyrian Empire.
The kindom of Judah was destroyed 586 BC by the babylonians.

So after that Israel didn't really exist, the land was always ruled by another civilization. This has been the case since 1948!!

From that link the Palestinians and Jewish people seem to be related anyway, so they are the same people. Only different religions.

Anyway if the Palestinians did just all turn up a little bit before 1967, like you say. That doesn't give Israel the right to evict them out of their homes. Ethnic cleansing I think you call it.

You go on about the Palestinians having the goal of wanted to displace the Israelies. Well if you look at what has happened, the Israelies have displaced the Palestinians. You can't argue with me on that!!

Also from my understanding of Islam, (not talking about the extremists)is that they tolerate and except other religions. Well they don't tolerate people converting people from Islam to another religion. So I can't see it as their goal to kill the jews.
I think there is something called "thou shall not kill".

I think it might be good for you to look at things from a few different angles to get a better perspective of things.

I think you’re just playing semantics. By the same token you call Palestinian snipers cowards I could call Israeli assassins cowards.



It isn’t cowardice. Would you suggest they march up against Israeli tanks with their AK-47s? Suicide attacks on civilians are evil, but they’re not cowardly at all. They’re a calculated strategy. The Palestinians know they have no chance taking on the Israeli army directly.



The Palestinians have no motive to engage in a “formal” war as they have no tanks or planes. The fact that they are openly hostile is enough for me to call it a war.



Jerusalem and many other cities in the West Bank have been dominated by Arabs for hundreds of years. That’s longer than the US has even existed. Israel can’t just force Arab civilians to leave their homes. By pursuing such a policy the Israeli military would be stooping to the level of petty third world dictators. Israel would be no better than Slobodan Milosevic’s Serbia or Saddam Husian’s Iraq.

Also, you must be severely deluded to think that peace would follow after such an action.