Sick Medical Care

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Awesomelyglorious
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17 Aug 2008, 5:26 pm

corroonb wrote:

Health care is not a commodity to be bought and sold. Everyone should be guaranteed health care. This is enshrined in the UN declaration of human right which I believe the US has signed.

I disagree with your assertion, as health care IS a commodity no matter what ANYBODY claims about it. Claiming it isn't is like claiming that the food you eat is created by fairies.

I really don't give 2 pennies about what the UN says either.

Quote:

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

The US alone out of all the developed nations does not have a national healthcare service.

Are all the other countries with successful economies wrong?

Ok.

Well, I hold to my position, other nations do not. So, either they are wrong and I am right, or vice versa, or this is an issue whether truth does not exist. I might stand more by answer 3 than others do.

corroonb
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17 Aug 2008, 5:28 pm

Strapples wrote:

corroonb wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Health care, being a normal good, will be consumed more the more a person has income. If we seek equality, then we will do so at the cost of efficiency, and effectively freedom as well.

Health care is not a commodity to be bought and sold. Everyone should be guaranteed health care. This is enshrined in the UN declaration of human rights which I believe the US has signed.

Quote:

The US alone out of all the developed nations does not have a national healthcare service.

Are all the other countries with successful economies wrong?

Uhm, the US does not have a successful economy... it is failing right now.

That is correct. A 9 trillion dollar debt is evidence of some very poor economic advice and decisions.

The idea that education should be privatised is frankly insane. We do not want a situation where the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor. Education is the one thing that can help people move from poverty to comfort.

Awesomelyglorious
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17 Aug 2008, 5:28 pm

Strapples wrote:

Uhm, the US does not have a successful economy... it is failing right now.

Because the business cycle disproves the success of an economy. Japan also forfeited it's right to a successful economy too when it was going through troubles in the 90s.

philosopherBoi
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17 Aug 2008, 5:29 pm

It just sounds like you don't want to pay taxes for universal health care that you don't care if people go without healthcare. Basically what I see is you are selfish and don't really care for others that much you lack sympathy and empathy. Please correct me if I am wrong but that is what it sounds like to me.

Awesomelyglorious
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17 Aug 2008, 5:32 pm

philosopherBoi wrote:

Ok fine what about people below the poverty line??? How are they supposed to put their kids through school you know we privatized college and look how many people go into debt over that some can't even afford to go.

What about them? Look, I did not say anything about any welfare measure at all. In fact, the popular idea for privatizing education is setting up education vouchers. This idea isn't even so extreme as you think it is, if you've paid attention to politics, the idea of education vouchers sometimes pops up in the mainstream. I merely said that privatizing it would be more efficient.

Quote:

Also if we clean the government up, and get spending straightened out the government would have a surplus of money if about five years or so (thanks Congress for getting us into debt with Iraq). Congress spends billions and billions on crap we don't need like that road to no where I was talking about :roll:

fix the government which is pretty easy to do and taxes can either stay the same or be lowered.

That is a pretty big if there. Fixing the government is probably actually ridiculously hard, I mean, it is not as if everyone decided to vote for a bad government, it is just a naturally occurring thing, and well... people have been saying negative things about political structures for a long time, that is a major reason and worries about governmental corruption was a major reason why the early US was so small.

corroonb
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17 Aug 2008, 5:32 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

corroonb wrote:

Health care is not a commodity to be bought and sold. Everyone should be guaranteed health care. This is enshrined in the UN declaration of human right which I believe the US has signed.

Quote:

The US alone out of all the developed nations does not have a national healthcare service.

Are all the other countries with successful economies wrong?

The United States is a member of the UN and should abide by the Charters that it agrees to. The US is acting illegally by not providing universal healthcare.

I think you will hold to your position whatever "evidence" any come up with because you are clearly ideologically biased.

I do not choose to have healthcare therefore it is not a commodity. People need healthcare, they do not need cars or gold. They are commodities. If I break my leg, I do not have a choice about whether I need healthcare or not and to suggest otherwise is, frankly, irrational.

ImTheGuyThatDidThat
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17 Aug 2008, 5:33 pm

Wait a minute... ""A 9 trillion dollar debt""
holy freakin`crap, are you kidding me
and this is growing steadily?

philosopherBoi
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17 Aug 2008, 5:34 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

philosopherBoi wrote:

Quote:

fix the government which is pretty easy to do and taxes can either stay the same or be lowered.

Privatizing would be less efficient and more would be left behind.

Also did you get hit on the head or something??? I remember the gay got their rights by marching and making a racket, same goes for everyone else if you protest enough things will change or do you think segregation was done away with by faeries?

Also people have the right to treatment and healthcare in this system you can be denied treatment for not having insurance people have died because of that it is not acceptable. Also is it right that because you don't have insurance you have to die from a disease??

Last edited by philosopherBoi on 17 Aug 2008, 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

corroonb
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17 Aug 2008, 5:36 pm

$9,598,858,499,836.68 of debt is what a government intent on warmongering will get you.

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

Quote:

The estimated population of the United States is 304,560,147
so each citizen's share of this debt is $31,517.12.

Add that to the trillions of dollars owed to banks around the world by many US citizens and the economic outlook (without universal healtcare) looks terrible.

Last edited by corroonb on 17 Aug 2008, 5:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Awesomelyglorious
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17 Aug 2008, 5:38 pm

corroonb wrote:

That is correct. A 9 trillion dollar debt is evidence of some very poor economic advice and decisions.

The first part is false, the US is not doing as terribly as most claim. I agree with the part about the 9 trillion dollar debt, however, the ratio of debt to GDP for the US is similar to that of most nations, and a lot lower than Japan's which has a public debt approaching double it's GDP, which would probably be about 8 trillion.

Quote:

The idea that education should be privatised is frankly insane. We do not want a situation where the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor. Education is the one thing that can help people move from poverty to comfort.

No, it is actually not insane. It is an idea conceived of by a Nobel Prize winning economist, one that is mentioned in a number of political circles, and well... to be honest, can you deny that the rich already HAVE better education than the poor do? If anything competition can make things better by promoting better schools all around. I think that a major issue is that you aren't separating the welfare measure from the economic structure. You can privatize education but still provide it to the poor, you can privatize health care and still provide it to the poor too. Not only that, but does education really help the poor succeed anyway? Poor people already have the worst education, and drop out in the highest frequency.

Dogbrain
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17 Aug 2008, 5:41 pm

philosopherBoi wrote:

Why are people in America so bloody stupid why don't they demand health care?? In Canada, the UK, and France they have universal health care

And in Canada, anyone with money comes to the USA to get competent and correct health care, for some reason. One would think that, if the Canadian system were so wonderful, that this wouldn't be happening.

corroonb
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17 Aug 2008, 5:41 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

What incentive does a private healthcare or education industry have to provide for people who cannot pay? None.

Businesses do not behave with compassion. They behave like selfish sociopaths who care nothing for people unless they have money.

Awesomelyglorious
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17 Aug 2008, 5:43 pm

corroonb wrote:

The United States is a member of the UN and should abide by the Charters that it agrees to. The US is acting illegally by not providing universal healthcare.

No, we should instead get out of the UN. Frankly, international law is hardly law anyway as the UN is an empty figure. If the US disagreed with the UN then the US would win.

Quote:

I think you will hold to your position whatever "evidence" any come up with because you are clearly ideologically biased.

Well, you aren't? I already laid out my ethical philosophy. I also have been citing more external sources than anyone else in the debate.

Quote:

I do not choose to have healthcare therefore it is not a commodity. People need healthcare, they do not need cars or gold. They are commodities. If I break my leg, I do not have a choice about whether I need healthcare or not and to suggest otherwise is, frankly, irrational.

No, you do choose to have healthcare, you choose the dental work you have done, you choose how much risk you are willing to accept in your medical practices, you choose what doctor you want, you choose what kind of doctor you want, so on and so forth. I have already given you a Harvard economist who has pretty flatly stated that healthcare is a normal good, and thus a commodity and so on and so forth. Your arguments, unless they can address his position, are pointless.

Awesomelyglorious
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17 Aug 2008, 5:47 pm

corroonb wrote:

What incentive does a private healthcare or education industry have to provide for people who cannot pay? None.

Ummm..... right, helping those without money is a welfare measure, not a measure of efficient economic allocation. The latter is something we should certainly pursue.

Quote:

Businesses do not behave with compassion. They behave like selfish sociopaths who care nothing for people unless they have money.

Yes, and that is why they allocate resources efficiently. Heck, to be honest, *all institutions* are psychopathic. Efficient allocation of resources is a good thing. Now, I am not standing against your ethical position simply because a small adjustment in policy can adjust the problems you are putting forward as insurmountable, I have already mentioned stipends as a measure of addressing your ethical position but you still go on as if I never stated that.

corroonb
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17 Aug 2008, 5:49 pm

Clearly I am dealing with an irrational person here. Citing from authority is a fallacy.

I don't care if god himself tells me that healthcare is a commodity, I do not think it is. Someone with breast cancer or testicular cancer has a right to healthcare because they have a right to life. I take you do not think people have a right to live. Someone who is starving has a right to food. To them food is not a choice, it is a necessity. A commodity is not a necessity.

I see they are giving Noble prizes to crackpots now.

Frankly I am so happy I was born in Ireland and not the US.

Your whole stance is frankly at odds with the religion you profess. I assume you see yourself as a Christian. Is it not Christian to give to those who are in need?

Awesomelyglorious
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17 Aug 2008, 5:54 pm

philosopherBoi wrote:

Privatizing would be less efficient and more would be left behind.

Why would privatization be less efficient? Are you arguing the service cannot be put to a market? Because if it can be, then privatization will lead to competition, attempts to please customers, and things like that which will drive innovation which will ultimately lead to a more efficient system. As well, it will open up the doors for economic calculation, a factor left out in non-private systems.

Quote:

Also did you get hit on the head or something??? I remember the gay got their rights by marching and making a racket, same goes for everyone else if you protest enough things will change or do you think segregation was done away with by faeries?

What rights? Not only that, but how are gay rights similar to making a system that thrives off of corrupt actions clean?

Quote:

Also people have the right to treatment and healthcare in this system you can be denied treatment for not having insurance people have died because of that it is not acceptable. Also is it right that because you don't have insurance you have to die from a disease??

Wait, if people have the right to treatment and healthcare in this system, but they can be denied treatment and health care in this system, then it seems that they do not have the right.

Well, the issue is that I can argue that health care stipends will allow for the poor to get insurance and thus we can promote a private system along with promoting the welfare of the poor. Or I can also attack your ethical claim by saying that if individuals are responsible for themselves, then they should handle their own affairs, and back this up by the notion that a person who does not have self-responsibility thus cannot have self-ownership and thus cannot be free.

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