Do Internet Atheists Have Anything New To Say?

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Haliphron
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02 May 2009, 2:50 pm

ouinon wrote:

Haliphron wrote:

ouinon wrote:

Haliphron wrote:

I am not a believer in God is for 2 important reasons:
1. NO physical evidence presented to me that a supernatural, supreme being exists.
2. NO personal contact with such a being; not even within my mind.

Do you believe in "truth", or "beauty" or "justice" or "right and wrong"? If so, why?

Yes I do, but HOW does this follow from what you quoted me saying?

What physical evidence do you have for the existence of any of those? And isn't your "contact" with any of them limited to purely subjective experience?

.

Beauty is an emotional reaction we have towards things we perceive through our senes and sometimes from abstract ideas.
Emotions DO have a physical basis in the brain(which is itself physical). But my point that I have neither objective evidence NOR subjective experience of this thing which people call God.

ouinon
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02 May 2009, 2:51 pm

Henriksson wrote:

ouinon wrote:

... What is offensive about believing that one's idea of right and wrong comes from god?

Let me ask you this: If there is no god and you still believe there exists, which appears to be the case, wouldn't you still have that so-called concept of morals?

I don't understand your point/question, sorry.

.

Henriksson
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02 May 2009, 2:53 pm

ouinon wrote:

Henriksson wrote:

ouinon wrote:

... What is offensive about believing that one's idea of right and wrong comes from god?

Let me ask you this: If there is no god and you still believe there exists, which appears to be the case, wouldn't you still have that so-called concept of morals?

I don't understand your point/question, sorry.

.

If a guy who believed in the sun thought he was commanded by the sun to good, even if the sun is really just a flaming ball of gas, wouldn't he still have morals?

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Sand
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02 May 2009, 2:53 pm

ouinon wrote:

Haliphron wrote:

ouinon wrote:

Haliphron wrote:

Do you believe in "truth", or "beauty" or "justice" or "right and wrong"? If so, why?

Yes I do, but HOW does this follow from what you quoted me saying?

What physical evidence do you have for the existence of any of those? And isn't your "contact" with any of them limited to purely subjective experience?

.

Basically what you are arguing for is the possibility of God. A possibility is more acceptable as it advances to a probability. I see no such advance. The Bible is replete with self contradictory rubbish in this direction.

ouinon
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02 May 2009, 2:57 pm

Haliphron wrote:

My point that I have neither objective evidence NOR subjective experience of this thing which people call God.

"Truth", "beauty", "justice" etc are subjective things, abstract "entities" with no objective basis, like "God".

Most people have some idea of what they mean. But not everybody has "experienced" justice, and many people would disagree on what constituted beauty.

The ideas/words are symbols. "God" is another, ( possibly the "meta"symbol ), as real as truth and beauty and justice.
.

Last edited by ouinon on 02 May 2009, 3:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ouinon
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02 May 2009, 3:02 pm

Henriksson wrote:

If a guy who believed in the sun thought he was commanded by the sun to good, even if the sun is really just a flaming ball of gas, wouldn't he still have morals?

"God" is a metasymbol, which represents/includes everything else in the universe, including all other symbols. Thus religious belief that ideas of wrong and right come from god is another way of saying that ideas of right and wrong are produced by the universe, not by some illusion of a "free-thinking/discerning" self.

.

Henriksson
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02 May 2009, 3:08 pm

ouinon wrote:

Henriksson wrote:

If a guy who believed in the sun thought he was commanded by the sun to good, even if the sun is really just a flaming ball of gas, wouldn't he still have morals?

Meta symbols in all honour... but isn't the concept of 'god' kind of meaningless in that case? We've seen morals change over time due to socio-economical factors, and not due to the will of some kind of meta symbol. It's commiting the "god of the gaps" fallacy, trying to find information where there is none. It's just a really pointless metaphor which kind of attempts to make sense of it all, but fails.

On a related note:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVbnciQYMiM[/youtube]

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Sand
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02 May 2009, 3:08 pm

ouinon wrote:

Henriksson wrote:

If a guy who believed in the sun thought he was commanded by the sun to good, even if the sun is really just a flaming ball of gas, wouldn't he still have morals?

Neither God nor the universe speaks loud enough nor clear enough for average people to hear. The people who listen most closely to the universe are scientists

Haliphron
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02 May 2009, 3:09 pm

ouinon wrote:

Thus religious belief that ideas of wrong and right come from god is another way of saying that ideas of right and wrong are produced by the universe, not by some illusion of a "free-thinking/discerning" self.

.

By claiming that morals embedded in natural law(the "laws of nature"), religion creates an incentive for people to abide by them.

ouinon
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02 May 2009, 3:15 pm

Haliphron wrote:

By claiming that morals are embedded in natural law, ( the "laws of nature" ), religion creates an incentive for people to abide by them.

Not "natural law" ... whatever that means, but:

Sand wrote:

We are not individuals floating in a social vacuum. We grow up in families and with others growing up and the bulk of social information is established through family tradition. I learned what was proper and accepted through my parents, my associates, my teachers etc..

Society is part of the universe too. Everything determines your sense of right and wrong.

PS. "What religious organisations do with their power" is not the same issue as "How belief in god intersects with morals".
.

Last edited by ouinon on 02 May 2009, 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ouinon
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02 May 2009, 3:18 pm

Henriksson wrote:

Meta symbols in all honour... but isn't the concept of 'god' kind of meaningless in that case?

As meaningless as "truth", "beauty", "justice", etc? ... ...

They used to argue for the abolition of the Monarchy in the UK on the basis that the Royal family helps to sustain/prop up/perpetuate the aristocracy and other class heirarchies. I think that the same thing may apply to symbols; take away the metasymbol, and the others gradually lose all meaning ...
.

Last edited by ouinon on 02 May 2009, 3:35 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Sand
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02 May 2009, 3:24 pm

ouinon wrote:

Haliphron wrote:

By claiming that morals are embedded in natural law, ( the "laws of nature" ), religion creates an incentive for people to abide by them.

Not "natural law" ... whatever that means, but:

Sand wrote:

This is part of the universe too.

"What religious organisations do with their power" is not the same issue as "How belief in god intersects with morals".
.

But morals vary tremendously between individuals, between cultures, between traditions. Obviously they are human, not divine constructions.

ouinon
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02 May 2009, 3:29 pm

Sand wrote:

But morals vary tremendously between individuals, between cultures, between traditions. Obviously they are human, not divine constructions.

Variety/variation means that some class of thing is not divine?

Henriksson
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02 May 2009, 3:33 pm

ouinon wrote:

Henriksson wrote:

Meta symbols in all honour... but isn't the concept of 'god' kind of meaningless in that case?

As meaningless as "truth", "beauty", "justice", etc?

They used to argue for the abolition of the Monarchy in the UK on the basis that the Royal family helped to sustain/prop up/perpetuate the aristocracy and other class heirarchies. I think that the same thing may apply to symbols; take away the metasymbol, and the others gradually lose all meaning.

.

Really? I think that concept of truth, beauty and justice is quite hollow, since it seems to be unable to comprehend a universe without it. I can comprehend it even though I'm not bound to that belief, why would it have less meaning for me?

Quote:

truth
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
7. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.
8. (often initial capital letter) ideal or fundamental reality apart from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life.
9. agreement with a standard or original.
10. accuracy, as of position or adjustment.
11. Archaic. fidelity or constancy.

Quote:

jus⋅tice
1. the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause.
2. rightfulness or lawfulness, as of a claim or title; justness of ground or reason: to complain with justice.
3. the moral principle determining just conduct.
4. conformity to this principle, as manifested in conduct; just conduct, dealing, or treatment.
5. the administering of deserved punishment or reward.
6. the maintenance or administration of what is just by law, as by judicial or other proceedings: a court of justice.
7. judgment of persons or causes by judicial process: to administer justice in a community.
8. a judicial officer; a judge or magistrate.
9. (initial capital letter) Also called Justice Department. the Department of Justice.

Quote:

beau⋅ty
1. the quality present in a thing or person that gives intense pleasure or deep satisfaction to the mind, whether arising from sensory manifestations (as shape, color, sound, etc.), a meaningful design or pattern, or something else (as a personality in which high spiritual qualities are manifest).
2. a beautiful person, esp. a woman.
3. a beautiful thing, as a work of art or a building.
4. Often, beauties. something that is beautiful in nature or in some natural or artificial environment.
5. an individually pleasing or beautiful quality; grace; charm: a vivid blue area that is the one real beauty of the painting.
6. Informal. a particular advantage: One of the beauties of this medicine is the freedom from aftereffects.
7. (usually used ironically) something extraordinary: My sunburn was a real beauty.
8. something excellent of its kind: My old car was a beauty.

Tell me why these concepts need some useless metaphor.

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Last edited by Henriksson on 02 May 2009, 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ouinon
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02 May 2009, 3:37 pm

Henriksson wrote:

I think that concept of truth, beauty and justice is quite hollow, since it seems to be able to comprehend a universe without it. I can comprehend it even though I'm not bound to that belief, why would it have less meaning for me? [ Definitions of: Truth, Beauty, Justice ] Tell me why these concepts need some useless metaphor.

Sorry, I once again don't understand what you mean.
.

Last edited by ouinon on 02 May 2009, 3:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ouinon
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02 May 2009, 3:42 pm

ouinon wrote:

As meaningless as "truth", "beauty", "justice", etc?

... ... They used to argue for the abolition of the Monarchy in the UK on the basis that the Royal family helps to sustain/prop up/perpetuate the aristocracy and other class heirarchies. I think that the same thing may apply to symbols; take away the metasymbol, and the others gradually lose all meaning ...
.

I am suddenly intrigued by analogy this because it touches precisely on the issue of "morals without belief in god", and I am wondering which way it works, whether belief in god actually helps one to advance beyond belief/blind faith in the existence of these things, ( towards seeing their "hollowness" ), or whether it reinforces belief in them.

Is that sort of what you were getting at, Henriksson?
.

Last edited by ouinon on 02 May 2009, 3:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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