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Our New President - President Donald Trump

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Chronos
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26 Feb 2017, 11:15 pm

EzraS wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
So a rape victim will have no say over her own body?She is already a victim and now people want to take away her choice.Not like most rapist use condoms when they attack.
What about a victim of incest?Should society have the right to tell a young girl she has to carry her attackers baby?
All you will do is force desperate women into going to unsafe places to have the procedure.
You'll never stop it,but you will cause some women to die needlessly from botched abortions and infections.


I'm sure the vast majority of abortions are due to getting horny and wanting feels. Hump now abort later, it's just a waste product easily disposed of. What about all the repeat customers? They'd probably have drive thru abortions if were possible.


Maybe, but if that were the case, I think it would be better that such individuals not become parents. Quite honestly, if I had anything to say about it, contraception would be free and easily available, as would first trimester abortions and pregnancy tests. However, adoption would be stressed and the mother would receive free health care during her pregnancy, which may be partially government subsidized depending on the wealth of the prospective adoptive parents.



Last edited by Chronos on 27 Feb 2017, 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Misslizard
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27 Feb 2017, 12:05 am

EzraS wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
So a rape victim will have no say over her own body?She is already a victim and now people want to take away her choice.Not like most rapist use condoms when they attack.
What about a victim of incest?Should society have the right to tell a young girl she has to carry her attackers baby?
All you will do is force desperate women into going to unsafe places to have the procedure.
You'll never stop it,but you will cause some women to die needlessly from botched abortions and infections.


I'm sure the vast majority of abortions are due to getting horny and wanting feels. Hump now abort later, it's just a waste product easily disposed of. What about all the repeat customers? They'd probably have drive thru abortions if were possible.

I don't deny that some are becuse of poor choices.
I think Chronos is right,most that have repeat abortions probably wouldn't be that great a parent.Especially in the case of a woman with a serious drug addiction.There should be free and easily accessible birth control for all.
I'd prefer it was used as a last resort and not as a form of birth control.
I've never had one so I have no idea of what it's like to go thru that.None of the women I know that had one were happy about it,more like relieved.One was pretty much told she was going to have an abortion by her parents.She was about 15 at the time.The irony is her folks were Southern Baptist ,like hardcore Baptist.Yet they didn't want their daughter to be the unwed pregnant girl on the block.Other than that they were extreme pro-life and hypocrites.


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Misslizard
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27 Feb 2017, 12:14 am

Raptor wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
So a rape victim will have no say over her own body?She is already a victim and now people want to take away her choice.Not like most rapist use condoms when they attack.
What about a victim of incest?Should society have the right to tell a young girl she has to carry her attackers baby?
All you will do is force desperate women into going to unsafe places to have the procedure.
You'll never stop it,but you will cause some women to die needlessly from botched abortions and infections.

I think exceptions can be made for rape victims.
Pro-life vs. pro-choice is not one of my stronger values, but If I had to choose one side or another and make a hard stand it would most likely be on the side of pro-life.

If guns were illegal you would still find a way to aquire one wouldn't you? :D But it wouldn't be in a safe setting,more like a creepy dark alley where you might get your head knocked off and robbed.
Weed is illegal most places,but more people smoke now than ever.
When alcohol was illegal people still drank.
Women won't stop getting abortions if they are illegal.It will just go underground.Then you get criminals involved and profiting from it.


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Chronos
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27 Feb 2017, 2:18 am

Raptor wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
So a rape victim will have no say over her own body?She is already a victim and now people want to take away her choice.Not like most rapist use condoms when they attack.
What about a victim of incest?Should society have the right to tell a young girl she has to carry her attackers baby?
All you will do is force desperate women into going to unsafe places to have the procedure.
You'll never stop it,but you will cause some women to die needlessly from botched abortions and infections.

I think exceptions can be made for rape victims.
Pro-life vs. pro-choice is not one of my stronger values, but If I had to choose one side or another and make a hard stand it would most likely be on the side of pro-life.


I believe rape victims certainly should have access to abortions. However, while well intended, I find two faults with the idea of banning abortions but making exceptions for rape victims.

1. If you are pro life because you believe a fetus at any stage is a child, and that it's immoral to kill said child, why should the life of a fetus that is the result of rape matter any less?

2. A rape exclusion clause will inevitably result in false claims of rape, and potentially result in victims of actual rape being put on trial figuratively or literally, possibly further traumatizing them, and also result in denial of abortions for women who have actually been raped.

While I don't like the idea of abortions., I believe the most optimal results occur when women are given options, and that those options should include first trimester abortion as much as they should include abortion alternatives.



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27 Feb 2017, 2:18 am

Raptor wrote:
Chronos wrote:
I would believe those on the right more when they claim to be pro life, if they put an equal amount of effort into programs to assist single parents and their children, or programs to care for pregnant women who wish to put the baby up for adoption, as they do into limiting access to abortions. But more often than not they just condemn these women for getting pregnant while also limiting access to contraception.


While conservatives do believe in protecting innocent life, to include the unborn, we don't believe the government has cradle-to-grave responsibly for the individual's well-being.
Sometimes abortion is the best protection of the unborn.
I don't understand why it is assumed that life is necessarily desirable.



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27 Feb 2017, 2:21 am

androbot01 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Chronos wrote:
I would believe those on the right more when they claim to be pro life, if they put an equal amount of effort into programs to assist single parents and their children, or programs to care for pregnant women who wish to put the baby up for adoption, as they do into limiting access to abortions. But more often than not they just condemn these women for getting pregnant while also limiting access to contraception.


While conservatives do believe in protecting innocent life, to include the unborn, we don't believe the government has cradle-to-grave responsibly for the individual's well-being.
Sometimes abortion is the best protection of the unborn.
I don't understand why it is assumed that life is necessarily desirable.
True.



Chronos
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27 Feb 2017, 2:29 am

androbot01 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Chronos wrote:
I would believe those on the right more when they claim to be pro life, if they put an equal amount of effort into programs to assist single parents and their children, or programs to care for pregnant women who wish to put the baby up for adoption, as they do into limiting access to abortions. But more often than not they just condemn these women for getting pregnant while also limiting access to contraception.


While conservatives do believe in protecting innocent life, to include the unborn, we don't believe the government has cradle-to-grave responsibly for the individual's well-being.
Sometimes abortion is the best protection of the unborn.
I don't understand why it is assumed that life is necessarily desirable.


Some people really are horrible parents and should have never had children. I had a neighbor who had horrible parents, with 9 or 10 siblings between them, and they all ended up in foster care. She never had a stable family life, and made poor decisions herself (drugs). She ended up pregnant, and I suppose made an effort, but couldn't kick her drug habit, and when the baby was about a year old, my other neighbor came home to find the door wide open, the mother passed out on the couch from drugs, and the baby in the middle of the living room screaming. The father...her boyfriend, also had a drug problem, and I don't recall if he was in jail at the time or she had a restraining order against him. In any case, the police were called, and CPS placed the child with the boyfriend's parents.

I agree with conservatives on the point that a child needs responsible parents and a stable family life, but some people are just not capable of providing that, and they often produce children who continue the cycle because of it.



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27 Feb 2017, 2:35 am

It seems arrogant to me that people would assume they can judge better than the woman if her baby should be born. And then there's the issue of the harm caused to the mother by the pregnancy and birth. She should not have to go through this if she doesn't want to. It's her body.
Aren't there enough people on this planet already for Heaven's sake?



Chronos
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27 Feb 2017, 2:41 am

androbot01 wrote:
It seems arrogant to me that people would assume they can judge better than the woman if her baby should be born. And then there's the issue of the harm caused to the mother by the pregnancy and birth. She should not have to go through this if she doesn't want to. It's her body.
Aren't there enough people on this planet already for Heaven's sake?


It's ironic you should mention the dangers of pregnancy and birth. When Roe vs. Wade was being argued, the pro-life said wanted to pitch the argument that abortion posed an unacceptable danger to a woman's health. However the doctor who they wanted to testify to this, after going over the literature, concluded that pregnancy and child birth was significantly more dangerous than abortion, provided the abortion was performed before the in the first or early in the second trimester.

This is why I am of the opinion that those who want to ban abortion have a moral responsibility to see that pregnant women have free access to health care during, and for the first few months after their pregnancy.



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27 Feb 2017, 4:14 am

androbot01 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Chronos wrote:
I would believe those on the right more when they claim to be pro life, if they put an equal amount of effort into programs to assist single parents and their children, or programs to care for pregnant women who wish to put the baby up for adoption, as they do into limiting access to abortions. But more often than not they just condemn these women for getting pregnant while also limiting access to contraception.


While conservatives do believe in protecting innocent life, to include the unborn, we don't believe the government has cradle-to-grave responsibly for the individual's well-being.
Sometimes abortion is the best protection of the unborn.
I don't understand why it is assumed that life is necessarily desirable.


Abortion = protection?! Wtf. No comment.


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27 Feb 2017, 4:19 am

androbot01 wrote:
It seems arrogant to me that people would assume they can judge better than the woman if her baby should be born. And then there's the issue of the harm caused to the mother by the pregnancy and birth. She should not have to go through this if she doesn't want to. It's her body.
Aren't there enough people on this planet already for Heaven's sake?


What's arrogant is for someone to think they have the right to choose whether someone else gets to live or not.


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27 Feb 2017, 4:52 am

Pregnancy doesn't just happen. It's usually due to a premeditated consensual act. I don't think anyone should engage in sexual intercourse, unless they are willing to take full responsibility for a pregnancy that might occur. Maybe there should be heavy fines and or jail time involved for both parties.



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27 Feb 2017, 5:02 am

EzraS wrote:
Pregnancy doesn't just happen. It's usually due to a premeditated consensual act. I don't think anyone should engage in sexual intercourse, unless they are willing to take full responsibility for a pregnancy that might occur. Maybe there should be heavy fines and or jail time involved for both parties.


Sterilization.


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27 Feb 2017, 5:07 am

nurseangela wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Chronos wrote:
I would believe those on the right more when they claim to be pro life, if they put an equal amount of effort into programs to assist single parents and their children, or programs to care for pregnant women who wish to put the baby up for adoption, as they do into limiting access to abortions. But more often than not they just condemn these women for getting pregnant while also limiting access to contraception.


While conservatives do believe in protecting innocent life, to include the unborn, we don't believe the government has cradle-to-grave responsibly for the individual's well-being.
Sometimes abortion is the best protection of the unborn.
I don't understand why it is assumed that life is necessarily desirable.


Abortion = protection?! Wtf. No comment.

Protection from a bad life experience. Having a life is not necessarily a good thing. This is what I mean by arrogance. Pro-lifers think that because they enjoy their lives, everyone will. It's just not the case. There are some lives that are not worth living.



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27 Feb 2017, 5:24 am

androbot01 wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Chronos wrote:
I would believe those on the right more when they claim to be pro life, if they put an equal amount of effort into programs to assist single parents and their children, or programs to care for pregnant women who wish to put the baby up for adoption, as they do into limiting access to abortions. But more often than not they just condemn these women for getting pregnant while also limiting access to contraception.


While conservatives do believe in protecting innocent life, to include the unborn, we don't believe the government has cradle-to-grave responsibly for the individual's well-being.
Sometimes abortion is the best protection of the unborn.
I don't understand why it is assumed that life is necessarily desirable.


Abortion = protection?! Wtf. No comment.

Protection from a bad life experience. Having a life is not necessarily a good thing. This is what I mean by arrogance. Pro-lifers think that because they enjoy their lives, everyone will. It's just not the case. There are some lives that are not worth living.


In your opinion. I'll just say this, that the way you think, gives me the creeps. To me, this line of thinking is the same as how a sociopath or a psychopath would see the situation.


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27 Feb 2017, 5:44 am

There are pro-life people who go way overboard by equating birth control with abortion. It is no such thing. You aren't killing a life by preventing it.


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