A quick quote from Jefferson

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You should be thrilled. Someone stuck up for your right to be utterly offensive.

Affirmative action isn't a quota, and it does not apply to smaller businesses (not sure where the line is, however). The intention is to ask you to consider the fact that someone may have come into the process with a disadvantage and, thus give a little extra consideration. Given that certain groups of people often do come into the process with a disadvantage, it isn't that much to ask.

In years of working for a firm with full affirmation based policies, I NEVER saw a better candidate rejected in favor of an obviously weaker minority one.

Not that you are going to care, but here is why I will stick my neck out to change the opinions of people like you, and why I find it so offensive to find blind racism on this forum in particular:

I've noticed that my AS son is included best when surrounded by people who believe in and live comfortably with diversity. When you are busy asking people to accept a dozen different cultural differences, adding a little nuerodiversity isn't a big challenge. In any homogeneous group, however, it gets more difficult, and the differences more obvious. I confess, I'm not totally comfortable being the only Caucasian in a large group of African Americans, but I'm also not thrilled when I'm the sole Catholic in a large group of Pentecostals. Few people are thrilled to feel like an island, regardless of the reason for it. But when you create groups that are truly diverse, no one dominates and everyone fits in; the perfect place, in other words, for an Aspie. So ... in this community, an attitude that "I'm going to leave out who I want to leave out" seems particularly destructive.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 22 Aug 2010, 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't know where the boundaries defined in the rules specifically go in regards to racism... if it were simply that racist opinions were not allowed, then codarac and ascan would have been banned ages ago. I certainly don't think Hanotaux has been any worse than either of them. Probably not outside the boundaries of debate within PPR, as race is an issue that can be debated, and it's not reasonable to outright prohibit a certain viewpoint, even if almost all of us disagree strongly with it and even find it repulsive. I mean, we allow people with demonstrably and unambiguously false beliefs to continue espousing those beliefs here, so in light of that I don't see how it would be possible to defend a prohibition against racist sentiments.

Prospective quotas? The Supreme Court ruled that quotas are unconstitutional. It will take a huge legal change for that decision to be overruled, and there is no reason to expect that it will be.


No, it actually is a term for a specific ideology, just as "communist" and "socialist" are terms for specific ideologies. The fact that right-wingers like you abuse those terms as derogatives against anyone you disagree with probably causes you to project and assume that any labeling of you is likewise just a meaningless smear.


If by "liberal" you mean in the Enlightenment Liberal sense that generally respects egalitarianism and has a high commitment to civil rights, and by "these parts" you mean "the civilized world, especially the West," then yes. If you mean the politically US-left-wing Democratic Party standpoint on WP, I think a clearer look would find your assessment to be in error.

Well done.

Well, I guess I should have expected that posting on a site that supposedly vouches for the rights of a minority. I however don't personally consider AS to be any sort of minority or anything that merits any special treatment.

Uh... not true. I made dozens of valid points which the people conversing with me were unable and made no attempt to refute. Mabye you should read again.

"Dozens" seems like a gross exaggeration at best, as I personally have seen 0 and I doubt I've overlooked *that* many legitimate points. The points you've made which I ignored were mostly because they were so obviously ridiculous that I didn't think I should even bother responding to them.

^ Whatever, you can think what you want.

I hope you and the other liberal drones have a good time.

Nice thing to say to people who are actually suggesting you had a right to say what you did, and to say it here. Amazes me, actually.

Or does the consideration actually make you think less of us, because it's weak or some other (to me) total misconstruction?

I wasn't referring to you specifically actually.



I don't think less of you at all. In fact I'm actually sorry to offend. Its just ridiculous that one can take the opposing side on a certain controversial issue...... (which is actually probably the most contentious blanket issue going today,) and calls for warnings and all of that start getting thown around.

The transparentness of the party line in this sub-forum is really pathetic. Anyone can see it.

A few posters hide behind lots of big words and their superficially fancy education to control their own little meaningless little corner of the internet.

In my experience here there is good opportunity for presenting and elaborating one's point of view but the probability that any arguments presented will actually cause a major change in any participant's attitude is vanishingly small and I do not make myself an exception. The obviously racist viewpoint presented is worse than merely offensive, it is devastatingly unfounded and somewhat dangerous and totally unfortunate for the holder of such an attitude. It seems to be founded on a very restricted experience in life in general and I am mostly sad about that.

Meh, I wouldn't really expect any less. If you disagree with someone who holds fringe views, they will eventually conclude that you are a "drone" or a "shill" or "brainwashed" or somesuch for failing to see the "obvious" and "irrefutable" proof of their position. It's been a while since I actually cared about such accusations.

What amuses me most is the audacity of the intolerant to demand tolerance. I mean, I take a pretty absolutist view on civil liberties; I'd gladly grant tolerance to the intolerant, but I still never fail to get a good chuckle at the irony when someone advocates for oppression on the one hand and then turns around and yelps about how they're being oppressed.

I suppose I only have one more substantive question to ask of Hanotaux: You have indicated that you intend to start a business and to refuse employment to certain groups on the basis of race, and you have defended your "right" to do so. Do you think it would be appropriate or right for someone to refuse to hire any white people simply on the basis of race? Could I, for instance, start a business, and decide that I am only willing to hire black employees, even if there are better-qualified white candidates?

If you cannot see the double standard, we have nothing more to discuss.

I believe she was refering to Dox47 and Orwell (your prominent opponent), who both suggested you have the right to state your opinion in this place.


I suppose that is because they disagree with you on this matter?

So you are not really a communist?

I was going to leave you be as I wish to let you all alone. I have/had no desire to come and cause trouble in your forums so I'm really sorry its gone this far TBH.

I will do you the favor though of answering your questions as I owe it to you. I assumed actually we had a decent conversation.

In the first place, if you look back over my posts, you will see I said something along the lines of "the goal is not to convert the hard-line opposition but instead to persuade the moderates." I never once expected guys like you and Ska or Sand to 'convert' or anything, any more so than you would expect me to come over to your side. Sand is absolutely correct as I think it the casual viewers who don't post and are unaligned who will really weigh the merits.

If not brainwashing, I do feel though that there is a huge element of liberal "peer-pressue" in today's public schools, and with mass-media, to conform to the left. Its the ivory-tower elites running this show and their targets are both white and black youths to instill in them the proper mindsets of submission and dominance, respectively.



I'm glad you asked........... I'd be more than happy with blacks choosing to dissociate from whites. I'd be fine with it if anyone wanted to hire only black employees or whatever, if that was your pleasure, as you stated above. So no double standard there. If you wanted to hire blacks, more power to you.





OK........... its not being oppressed so much as the ridiculousness of a small forum with a few posters who try and run off any dissenters. Some people have lots of posts and let such a small amount of perceived status go completely to their head, and try and run things like revleft.

I'm just shocked because I thought we were having a pretty good arguement and then stuff gets thrown around about warnings and all of that. Its obvious anyway by the frequency and vigor of your responses to me that you and others felt threatened by my presence and the points I was making, even if you chose not to admit it. You seemed quite vigorous about responding to me and knocking me down so as a last resort, comments are tossed around about warnings to see if I can be cowed. Well, I think you'll get your wish as I won't post anymore in this forum except to answer whatever questions you have left for me in this thread. I hope you have fun from here on out.

White people in America absolutely should not "voluntarily" accept becoming a minority in their own country.

Again, I had no desire to cause drama and all of that.

It should be noted that no particular sector owns the country. Like any living dynamic thing the country changes and develops with its populace. It is noteworthy where a country demands that it's accepted citizens be uniform and of a particular genetic constitution like Israel the movement towards the totalitarian is obvious and this is exactly in opposition to the way the USA is fundamentally conceived.

Perhaps it was my mistake to jump into the middle of a discussion and try to moderate it. I was the unexpected wrench.

No one asked me to moderate this particular discussion or you, in case you are wondering. Just, while I was on the board, I was trying to get a feel for what was going on, and happened to open this thread.

I won't lie that I don't like what you wrote, and I won't hide that I'm politically liberal, and a pretty solid bleeding heart when it comes down to it. But I'm no one's drone, because I'm also a CPA / tax specialist, a career which has forged some views not all liberals share, and I'm also Catholic, albeit of the social justice bent, which is a faith not exactly associated in today's world with liberal culture. And, well, I also like to make my own decisions, and not fall lock step with anyone's party line. But, more relevant, try as we might to keep personal positions out of modding positions, they do enter into it. I don't "want" third parties reading these forums and quoting your statements as representative of things our AS members say, and I know for a fact that various bloggers with all sorts of agendas have done just that: scan our forums for the least popular sentiments out there, and posted them as examples of how WP members think. We can't unbind our posts from what is available to the world as the way our community thinks and interacts. So, maybe, a part of me wants it to appear a certain way ... I got called on that, I explained myself, and I now consider myself out-voted. To me, this forum is still a democracy, even if I'm the one with the final decision and all the tools. I do listen to what our members say about decisions I am making, and posting certain opinions in public allows them to weigh in.

I haven't read enough of the pages on this thread to know why you think as you do, or all the details of it. I have lived the life of segregation (you would have agreed with the opinions my dad espoused when I was a teenager), and I have lived the life of true diversity, and I have learned by doing so that the later is much, much better - but also extremely rare. It's hard to find that room with 20 Hispanics, 10 Asians, 10 African Americans, 10 various other minorities, and 50 Caucasians, that all fall proportionately on the various levels of the socio-economic spectrum. But, if you ever get the chance to be in one, you'll learn a world about why diversity is a good thing. Although, you might have to be locked in that room for a while before everyone overcomes their fears and barriers and actually comes together

Even if our nation tips into being 40 percent Caucasian and 60 percent everything else, the 40 percent Caucasian will still be the dominate power, and that is one point you seem to be missing. It's not like that sixty percent will be a unified group with a single agenda; it won't be. Think about it, which are the larger minority groups right now (Black, Hispanic, Asian) and just how similar are they culturally and in goal? Not very. If someone has convinced you otherwise, they haven't gotten to know the people that make up those groups.

As for stealing our country from those to whom it "belongs" ... well, that has been happening since our nation was born. We stole it from the Native Americans. Then various waves of German, Italian, and Irish immigrants (etc) had the gall to steal it from the Englishmen who signed our Declaration of Independence. No step of assimilation had been easy, and no step hasn't been without those saying that they absolutely will never mingle with "them;" yet, a few generations down the road, some new foreign wave arrives and the grandchildren of your grandfather's enemies are now part of what you consider to be "your"group. Surely, you studied enough sociology and history to know that pattern; we wouldn't even have Santa Clause if it weren't the reality of being American.

It's like painting a giant abstract mural, using one color at a time, then getting part way through your paints and saying, "stop," the other colors are happy as they are, so maybe I shouldn't throw in the next ones. Sure, you've got a mural that looks pretty good, but if you don't add the rest of the colors, you'll never know just how vibrant it can be. Every step of the way it changes.

Lol, how is THAT for liberal drone thinking?

Seriously, my kids attended a uniquely and truly diverse elementary school, on every level, and I totally fell in love with the place. Cool stuff happens when you lock the door on a room like that. You don't know until you've actually been there. People hide the fear of it under all sorts of statements about test scores and what not, and I've learned over time that even the most liberal actually do hesitate before walking into that room; not that many people actually ever have to live their values when it comes to diversity. It's in our instincts to sort ourselves into groups, same as we teach toddlers to sort blocks by shape and color. But, that doesn't mean we can't do better. We SHOULD do better. Want an edge in what is rapidly becoming a truly global economy? You most definitely will want to chose getting comfortable with diversity.

I do understand, btw, that the process of assimilation has been more difficult for African Americans and Blacks because of how they came to be here, and it "gets complicated." But we still have a moral obligation to try to cross the barriers and reach better, mutual understanding, and it remains in our own best interests to do so.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 23 Aug 2010, 11:56 am, edited 6 times in total.

You know you can never win such questions. They'll a) stick to their guns until they feel like as if they were actually discriminated against or b) they'll claim that they're already being discriminated against and they're just fighting back or c) avoid directly answering the question.