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ruveyn
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25 Feb 2011, 7:19 pm

visagrunt wrote:
I cannot speak to Christianity, of course.

In Judaism, it is religiously required to forgive the person who seeks it from you sincerely. Further, it is a religious obligation for Jews to seek forgiveness from those we have wronged, for G-d will not forgive those wrongs that have been done to other people.

This comes to the fore in Jewish observance in the period between Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur during which time it is supposed that the Book of Life has been written, but not yet sealed. During this time, Jews are taught to make reparations and seek forgiveness from those that they have wronged. We then seek forgiveness from G-d on Yom Kippur for the transgression committed against G-d.

Even if one does not believe in the Book of Life, it is no bad thing to be taught that you are obliged to seek forgiveness from the people you have hurt.


In Judaism holding a grudge or hating one's brother in one's heart is strictly forbidden. If one has an issue one should bring it to the surface plainly and deal with it, rather than harboring ill will or holding a grudge. So if your fellow has done you ill, you should rebuke him plainly and state how and why he has done you ill. That way the two of you can settle and resolve the matter.

ruveyn



JakobVirgil
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25 Feb 2011, 7:38 pm

ruveyn wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
I cannot speak to Christianity, of course.

In Judaism, it is religiously required to forgive the person who seeks it from you sincerely. Further, it is a religious obligation for Jews to seek forgiveness from those we have wronged, for G-d will not forgive those wrongs that have been done to other people.

This comes to the fore in Jewish observance in the period between Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur during which time it is supposed that the Book of Life has been written, but not yet sealed. During this time, Jews are taught to make reparations and seek forgiveness from those that they have wronged. We then seek forgiveness from G-d on Yom Kippur for the transgression committed against G-d.

Even if one does not believe in the Book of Life, it is no bad thing to be taught that you are obliged to seek forgiveness from the people you have hurt.


In Judaism holding a grudge or hating one's brother in one's heart is strictly forbidden. If one has an issue one should bring it to the surface plainly and deal with it, rather than harboring ill will or holding a grudge. So if your fellow has done you ill, you should rebuke him plainly and state how and why he has done you ill. That way the two of you can settle and resolve the matter.

ruveyn


@ruveyn -hush- if they find out that Jesus cribbed everything he said from Gamaliel they will convert and start trying to hang out with us.

@everybody else
jews worship a spiteful God and don't get to have christmas



Philologos
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25 Feb 2011, 8:08 pm

Ah Jakob, already we know. SOME of us read stuff that is not on the Dallas Seminary mailing list.

Cribbed is so harsh. When you invent a turbodigitoner, and I get my patents for a neutrophildemalogue that is the exact same machine but we used different plastic, everyone is supposed to agree that "it was in the air".

What was that about post hoc ergo propter hoc? And who published [in a peer reviewed venue] first?



JakobVirgil
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25 Feb 2011, 8:50 pm

Philologos wrote:
Ah Jakob, already we know. SOME of us read stuff that is not on the Dallas Seminary mailing list.

Cribbed is so harsh. When you invent a turbodigitoner, and I get my patents for a neutrophildemalogue that is the exact same machine but we used different plastic, everyone is supposed to agree that "it was in the air".

What was that about post hoc ergo propter hoc? And who published [in a peer reviewed venue] first?


fine I retract the verb they were contempories and both cribbed from Hillel.
in a non flipanant voice I find it fascinating that christanity and normative rabinical Judism
seem to have started at the nearly the same time.
-Jake



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25 Feb 2011, 9:20 pm

And the Essenes - depends on exactly how you cut your eras, of course.

It is really not that different from the Lutheran / Calvinist / Anabaptist deal, Puritans / Methodists / Quakers not so synchronous, the Transformationalist / Stratificationalist / Tagmemicist thing in 50s Linguistics, and a pile of other stuff.

There is a cycle. One group, with a specific style, comes to power and stays there. But people are not the same, so inevitably, in the best of circumstances, there are people want to see change, like the views that started to come out of the bushes when TG had been in power a while [which is why we had to have Son of Chomsky].

BUT since people are different, when they start to try to change stuff, these guys want to see it change THUS, these others want it SO. So when you get to - maybe not quite the same, but call it paradigm shift time - you will often get the stodgy mammoth splitting of two three four alternative successors.

Maybe eventually one wins, you start over.



JakobVirgil
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25 Feb 2011, 9:40 pm

I think they (pharisaic Rabinical Judism and Christianity) are ways to be Jewish after
the destruction of the temple. Christianity turn out to be less effective
not as a competitive religion, but as a way to stay Jewish.
Isn't there a tradition that Paul studied under Gamaliel?
(he did not seems to have learned much)

-Jake



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25 Feb 2011, 9:44 pm

kxmode wrote:
Using the entire Bible I wanted to show all the proof needed to explain why Jesus was the messiah they were looking for....

This is a perfect example of the religious thinking I don't get. Throwing a wall of quotes from your holy book doesn't really prove anything.



JakobVirgil
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25 Feb 2011, 9:46 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
kxmode wrote:
Using the entire Bible I wanted to show all the proof needed to explain why Jesus was the messiah they were looking for....

This is a perfect example of the religious thinking I don't get. Throwing a wall of quotes from your holy book doesn't really prove anything.


it proves something . . . :lol:



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26 Feb 2011, 1:34 am

visagrunt wrote:
kxmode wrote:
I'm a really nice person. Honest.


I believe that is true, kxmode.

And yet when I tell you that you have hurt me, rather than apologize to me and seek my forgiveness you defend your actions.


I offer you my apology for hurting your feelings.


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Revelation 21:4 "And [God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes,
and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.
The former things have passed away."


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26 Feb 2011, 1:53 am

kxmode wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
kxmode wrote:
I'm a really nice person. Honest.


I believe that is true, kxmode.

And yet when I tell you that you have hurt me, rather than apologize to me and seek my forgiveness you defend your actions.


I offer you my apology for hurting your feelings.


hey kxmode nice to see you back. :D



ruveyn
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26 Feb 2011, 2:53 am

kxmode wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
kxmode wrote:
I'm a really nice person. Honest.


I believe that is true, kxmode.

And yet when I tell you that you have hurt me, rather than apologize to me and seek my forgiveness you defend your actions.


I offer you my apology for hurting your feelings.


You again?

ruveyn



leejosepho
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26 Feb 2011, 8:23 am

ruveyn wrote:
kxmode wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
kxmode wrote:
I'm a really nice person. Honest.


I believe that is true, kxmode.

And yet when I tell you that you have hurt me, rather than apologize to me and seek my forgiveness you defend your actions.


I offer you my apology for hurting your feelings.


You again?

ruveyn

I apologize for Ruveyn's having asked that of you in that kind of manner.

Nice to see you are still here!


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ruveyn
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26 Feb 2011, 8:25 am

leejosepho wrote:
I apologize for Ruveyn's having asked that of you in that kind of manner.

Nice to see you are still here!


If feel no urge to be kind to that Low Calorie anti-semite.

ruveyn



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26 Feb 2011, 8:40 am

ruveyn wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
I apologize for Ruveyn's having asked that of you in that kind of manner.

Nice to see you are still here!


If feel no urge to be kind to that Low Calorie anti-semite.

ruveyn

Okay ... but then what about the urge to express same lack of feeling? :wink:


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Last edited by leejosepho on 26 Feb 2011, 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

Philologos
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26 Feb 2011, 8:45 am

ruveyn wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
I apologize for Ruveyn's having asked that of you in that kind of manner.

Nice to see you are still here!


If feel no urge to be kind to that Low Calorie anti-semite.

ruveyn


You could have stopped after word 7



ruveyn
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26 Feb 2011, 8:46 am

Philologos wrote:

You could have stopped after word 7


I wished to explain my unkindness (and it was unkind, shame on me. I should have kept my temper).

ruveyn



Last edited by ruveyn on 26 Feb 2011, 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.